Special Interest

Another topic spawned from harsh truths podcasts. Fairly amusing episode of The Shame Cup can be listened here:
https://harshtruthspodcast.wordpress.com/2018/08/02/episode-9-the-shame-cup/

There was mentioned genrification of noise. If term doesn't seem familiar, in common use it means general term for the arrival of wealthier people in an existing urban district, a related increase in rents and property values, and changes in the district's character and culture.
Before this podcast, I never heard it used in context of changing underground culture character, but really neatly fitting term!

Despite humoristic tone of the episode, perhaps exactly the humoristic approach was that reveals a bit about it. It was described as A light-hearted episode for everyone needing a harsh look in the mirror! Certainly the power electronics edgelords and dead body collages get their share of deserved comments. I can't quote exact comments, but there was remarks made towards people who come into noise scene and start to make moralistic judgements. In the very same podcast I keep being slightly annoyed by usage of contemporary terms like "noise community" and all that load of crap that comes with utterly unwanted extra baggage.

It was called decade+ ago pussification of noise by no less than RRRon Lessard, who saw the shift happening before his eyes. I guess that suitable term now is noise gentrification, underlines that it already took place? Question, if there is really any, is, do you miss the old neighborhood? Or did it really change at all, now just communication makes it more visible?

Those art grant funded events that happened a few years ago here in the UK fits the category. They were instigated by old timers and not new comers with deep pockets though. These old timers being only too happy to perform their old hits to mostly gawking outsiders at various posh venues. In reality nothing but nostalgia parties with an underground veneer.

I'm glad it ran out of steam.

Not sure if it relates but I saw a New Yorker comic recently where a woman made a list of either things she "liked" for men or things she "pretended to like for men", I can't remember nor do I care enough to look it up, but included in it all there was a darkened scribble with "Noise Music" written above it. Something I don't  think I expected to ever see in a magazine like that. It also seems more people are aware of it then a decade before, probably because of YouTube...

There is certainly a pussification of noise, but I gotta say, I find a lot of current noise repeating the same old tropes, same type of collages, it doesn't want to make me check out newer projects when I can look back at old stuff that did it so well. The rise of PC fascist in noise is equally annoying. No one has a sense of humor...art school kids...

It is 100% the WORST thing that has happened to the scene, at least in the US. I blame the punks for coming in because it was something new to them and then them bringing their punk morals and attempting (read: pretty much successfully) to completely change the dynamics. It's a microcosm of call-out culture.
I don't understand why anyone would even be interested in something that they are so appalled by and have the nerve to come in and change what has existed many many years before they were born.

Quote from: GEWALTMONOPOL on October 05, 2019, 02:57:10 PM
Those art grant funded events that happened a few years ago here in the UK fits the category. They were instigated by old timers and not new comers with deep pockets though. These old timers being only too happy to perform their old hits to mostly gawking outsiders at various posh venues. In reality nothing but nostalgia parties with an underground veneer.

I'm glad it ran out of steam.

what events are you referring to? the bristol schimpfluch thing? the lafms thing in london?

I think people have always engaged critically with noise and it's a bit naive to think it can be shielded from what is happening with culture in a wider sense. Most scenes ossify slightly after a few decades.

That said I am always well up for slagging off newbies. Personally I think things took a dive when all the metal dudes showed up.

I'm not familiar with the terminology, so correct as necessary.  Isn't some of this partially due to membership or patronage of art institutes and other places?  Especially when you see older, completely out of their element people in the ranks.  I can remember even going to Dead Can Dance performances at otherwise art venues, seeing people far outside any common demographic in the audience.  I later found out many of them were big donors, season ticket holders, people with fellowships, and other situations that tied them to the venue or art scene.  They didn't necessarily have interest in that particular thing, but they systematically showed up to support the venue, scene, artists in general, etc.  And if some of those are active creative types, it's also an invitation to dabble out of mild curiosity.  Here's this shiny new thing to them, so let's try it.  They don't care about the cultural aspect.  They have no interest in noise, as an example, culture or society.  This thing they randomly experienced via their normal art institute habits piques their interest for a minute.  It's within their context, but outside of general context.  I've always viewed art culture like an ant colony.  That's not to be read as negative, either.  Lots of activity.  Scrambling about.  Movement.  Distractions.  Highly social, and easily influenced, while simultaneously being sequestered.

Just a thought, since i have no experience with local scenes etc. , i wonder is it cause an 'art academy' 'elitist' minority may see some interest in noise and gets their hands on the subject ? Or is it just cause of the general pussification of younger generations, who a big part of them grew up learning to feel insulted by anything, who cant handle it if they get a little bullied at school, who never played at the streets, never fought, never ... never ...

Well, these kids, teenagers, may come into noise too. And if there is one thing they have learned well is "You wanna change the world ? Tweet about it !" . "Internet is power, you little helpless maggot, unite your voice with million other maggots like you, and become one giant unbeatable maggot-mass. You have the power now. World is yours."

Noise podcasts are a bigger sign of gentrification and contemporary dilution of underground culture than some insincere art student tourists who don't like Bizarre Uproar.

Quote from: Duncan on October 06, 2019, 12:06:48 AM
Noise podcasts are a bigger sign of gentrification and contemporary dilution of underground culture than some insincere art student tourists who don't like Bizarre Uproar.

Funny.  Not an off perspective at all.  If the options are a lunkhead, football flexer, dipshit, troglodyte type, and the goon rhetoric and opinions that come with them, or a "pussified" art tourist, give me the art tourist.  I'm not really one for desperately needing things to be new and unique, but if you desire new and unique, you might want to put a bet down on the art tourist being more likely to come up with such.  Their frame of reference is likely to be far less restrictive, with biases and preferences yet to be established.

I may be way off base here but after thinking on this there seems to be cycles in this phenomena over the years. Merzbow on Relapse around 1998 - when he could book a huge tour (or maybe he was opening for Mr. Bungle or some shit?) without any real issue, fast forward to Wolf Eyes on Sub Pop in what, 2004-2006-ish.... now Merzbow is cancelled (kidding....) due to his online meltdown about the noise podcast about him and Wolf Eyes is a meme page with 80,000 followers. Maybe the next thing was Full of Hell utilizing noise elements and that would have been what, 2012-ish? Now it's definitely (maybe) the influx of guys from the black metal scene who love that edgy shit. I'm probably missing a few cycles.

I suppose if I was a more educated person in the realm of cultural shifts I'd say it probably has as much to do with the "old guard" become disillusioned by the ever changing landscape and crying for the"good old days" as much as it is the influx of new faces - personally I don't really care who is into it as the scene right now seems really strong.

give me the lunkhead football flexer dipshit troglodyte with goon rhetoric

I view gentrification in the context of noise as the social media influenced shift towards the "curation" of inclusive "experimental music" over allowing people to let their freak flag fly, particularly when it comes down to confrontational performance. It's pretty baneful stuff. I once had someone tell me "harsh noise is inherently misogynistic" when I asked why they wouldn't book anything heavy for their monthly "experimental night". Again and again I see venues/bookers more interested in an artists biography and "artist statement" over the visceral quality of their sounds. This dovetails nicely with the local scene thread; it requires active and thoughtful pushback from noizeheads otherwise you may find yourself painted into a corner, branded racist and misogynistic, homophobic, xenophobic, etc. because your cover art triggers some connection in the mind of scene tourists/gentrifiers, who through the sheer force of capital that they're swinging around, run the only venues that would allow you to play. It's your scene, defend it!

On a more literal interpretation, my local scene has had several noise booking venues deep in the hood over the years and I am always stoked by random street freaks coming in and headbanging to a harsh set. I'll take that any day over a bunch of 15-dollar-hamburger-enjoyers in clear framed glasses sitting in folding chairs while someone plays a speak and spell through a peavey practice amp.

Can't say that I've ever thought about it or cared one way or the other. As far as who is presenting the shit or who shows up. I've always just been gratified when this or that project rolls through a venue that's within striking distance.

Still one of the most memorable Merzbow performances was outdoors at a major NTT funded media arts center in Tokyo. At the start of the event, which presumably included various multi-media people, probably Ryoji Ikeda and others, you couldn't get anywhere near the stage...or the giant speaker stacks. When Merz and then-hubby started up the massive crowd, numbering I'd guess in the thousands, dispersed real quick. After making my way to stand right in front of one of the stacks I recognized exactly one noisehead from a few past events, bowed as me and shaking slightly from the bodily pressures. There may have been a handful of others still hanging around by the end, can't recall. Loudest goddamn show ever.

Ahem, I am a bit guilty there, I remember when at College doing Art, in 1997 Frieze Art Magazine in the UK did a feature on Japanese Noise and there was a free 3"CD with Massona, Merzbow and (I think) Pain Jerk. I was fascinated by that article (I just googled and Russell Haswell wrote it.)  I remember being blown away by Massona and not liking Merzbow as much. That along with Premature Ejaculation years earlier introduced me to an aspect of noise I could take off from. When the Wolf Eyes thing was big, that seemed to make it acceptable everywhere to say you liked Noise, I remember that a lot, Wolf Eyes and Merzbow was very easy to buy in the 2000s and I guess the coverage in Wire in the 2000s helped a lot.

Quote from: Lazrs3 on October 06, 2019, 12:25:58 PM
Ahem, I am a bit guilty there, I remember when at College doing Art, in 1997 Frieze Art Magazine in the UK did a feature on Japanese Noise and there was a free 3"CD with Massona, Merzbow and (I think) Pain Jerk.

The third artist on that 3"CD is MC Hellshit & DJ Carhouse (Yamatsuka Eye on voice and Otomo Yoshihide on turntables).

I find this thread and people's opinions highly ironic when the opposite could also be said about them by other people who made music often mistakenly considered as elitistic throughout the 20th century and whose approach to music, through cut-up stuff to use of metal junk, drones, loops and whatnot, is similar to what all the elitist noiseheads make without the distracting lyrics and the distortion, and the shock value. Performance noise will always be boring since nobody will ever ruin a venue with a bulldozer again. More than "gentrification", which is a very biased term probably used by people who are the exact definition of what a "gentrifier" is in this particular context (and you're probably one who's responsible for gentrifying something as well when say, you move somewhere where rent is cheaper so you can save money and 1. you disturb the wealth balance of the place you moved in, 2. you disturb the demographics of the place before you came in), I think the current noiseheads are pissed by some sort of cultural appropriation of what they considered (erroneously again, imho) as THEIR music by people they politically disagree with. Prejudices, again.

Quote from: Euro Trash Bazooka on October 06, 2019, 03:10:50 PM1. you disturb the wealth balance of the place you moved in, 2. you disturb the demographics of the place before you came in), I think the current noiseheads are pissed by some sort of cultural appropriation of what they considered (erroneously again, imho) as THEIR music by people they politically disagree with. Prejudices, again.

Quote from: holy ghost on October 06, 2019, 01:59:06 AM
I may be way off base here but after thinking on this there seems to be cycles in this phenomena over the years. Merzbow on Relapse around 1998 - when he could book a huge tour (or maybe he was opening for Mr. Bungle or some shit?) without any real issue, fast forward to Wolf Eyes on Sub Pop in what, 2004-2006-ish.... now Merzbow is cancelled (kidding....) due to his online meltdown about the noise podcast about him and Wolf Eyes is a meme page with 80,000 followers. Maybe the next thing was Full of Hell utilizing noise elements and that would have been what, 2012-ish? Now it's definitely (maybe) the influx of guys from the black metal scene who love that edgy shit. I'm probably missing a few cycles.

I suppose if I was a more educated person in the realm of cultural shifts I'd say it probably has as much to do with the "old guard" become disillusioned by the ever changing landscape and crying for the"good old days" as much as it is the influx of new faces - personally I don't really care who is into it as the scene right now seems really strong.

To first return to the what spawned the idea for topic, I recommend listening the episode from 43 minutes onwards when the shame match of "noise gentrification" vs "noise creationists" starts. Reminding still that it's comedy bit.

How gentrification is described (in short) People show up, they have no context of subtleties, but something makes them uncomfortable in history, they want to push it away. I don't see it happen basically with any former shift in industrial/noise that was described above. That it would be sort of middleclass-esque mentality, moralism combined with "identity shopping". It isn't like power electronics brutes invaded musique concrete scene and had "demands". They just created "scene" of their own. It seems to me, that formerly, harsh noise created it's own "neighborhoods". It wasn't about invading existing place and attempt to cleanse it to your liking, but building new. I doubt it was possible to move in with demands. Now you got people talking about community and sensitivity in places that are what they are, and blossomed, because there was no such mentality around. If looking the common traits of middle class mentality with modern noise and analogies of gentrification, you probably see some of the same things mentioned comedy bit so funny - and true.

Quote from: Euro Trash Bazooka on October 06, 2019, 03:10:50 PM
I find this thread and people's opinions highly ironic when the opposite could also be said about them by other people who made music often mistakenly considered as elitistic throughout the 20th century and whose approach to music, through cut-up stuff to use of metal junk, drones, loops and whatnot, is similar to what all the elitist noiseheads make without the distracting lyrics and the distortion, and the shock value. Performance noise will always be boring since nobody will ever ruin a venue with a bulldozer again. More than "gentrification", which is a very biased term probably used by people who are the exact definition of what a "gentrifier" is in this particular context (and you're probably one who's responsible for gentrifying something as well when say, you move somewhere where rent is cheaper so you can save money and 1. you disturb the wealth balance of the place you moved in, 2. you disturb the demographics of the place before you came in), I think the current noiseheads are pissed by some sort of cultural appropriation of what they considered (erroneously again, imho) as THEIR music by people they politically disagree with. Prejudices, again.

I don't particularly disagree...but if someone writes off Whitehouse as "nazi pedophiles"......I just immediately catalog them mentally as a clueless faggot.

lots of these problems caused by people falling back on decades-old trick of vagueness and never being directly asked what their work means. whitehouse is obviously ironic but it wasn't til a few years ago WB felt compelled to issue a little public relations clean-up about it all. Same with Solotroff. And yet the current scene is awash in noncommittal bullshit. The worst is the hypocrisy of the moralists; because they don't understand certain references, or because they can justify it to themselves as some kind of 'social commentary,' all sorts of stuff that should offend their humanistic sensibilities gets a pass. is it because outsiders are trying to come in and "take over" hn and pe?? I dont think so. It's because peoples' reasons for doing it have become weak.

Quote from: moozz on October 06, 2019, 01:48:39 PM

Quote from: Lazrs3 on October 06, 2019, 12:25:58 PM
Ahem, I am a bit guilty there, I remember when at College doing Art, in 1997 Frieze Art Magazine in the UK did a feature on Japanese Noise and there was a free 3"CD with Massona, Merzbow and (I think) Pain Jerk.

The third artist on that 3"CD is MC Hellshit & DJ Carhouse (Yamatsuka Eye on voice and Otomo Yoshihide on turntables).

Thanks, I wasn't being lazy, I would have checked, but somehow managed to lose it years ago. This in my defence was my first 3" CD. I am big on the Inner Demons label who only do 3"CDRs and I have not lost any of them, so decades later I have learned better 3"CD care.

Listened to some parts of the podcast just to get the gist of what's being discussed here. First of all, labeling a show as "comedy" and then trying to drop a bunch of hot takes is a little wack imo. So you're not supposed to take anything seriously, LOL jk... unless?
On the topic, as far as I understand the process of gentrification is primarily based on more affluent workers being able to buy houses close to their workplace. So the idea as it is presented in the podcast that gentrification results from all these ghetto LARPing hipsters who love the grimy aesthetics of urban areas and then complain about crime is just wrong. The parallel to noise gentrifiers is therefore lacking as well. Noise is not "poor people music" - also as seen by the racial representation at most shows (90% white), but that's a separate discussion - so an infiltration of the scene by rich people driving poor people away doesn't exist. What kinds of instruments one is able to afford doesn't really play into the musical output or to put in other words - being able to buy expensive gear doesn't make for a good artist obviously.
So I am assuming the "problem" of gentrification which is presented here has to be cultural then; it is offensive to some that people enter a scene without being well familiar with the origins and then make a bunch of moral statements judging certain outputs of the scene. To me personally, that is totally normal and expected since I've always assumed noise or extreme electronic music comes in all shapes and colors. Right-wingers will complain about liberals and vice versa. The message I'm getting from people who complain about gentrifiers though is that noise is supposed to be like -this- cause it's always been like -this- and people who complain about -this- are wrong. My issue is that I'm missing an explanation from these people what they would like -this- to be, since it is entirely arbitrary and subjective, but at least I would have an idea what they're talking about.
Maybe it's the old free speech thing which some confuse with being able to say whatever you want and not suffer the consequences?

Quote from: Euro Trash Bazooka on October 06, 2019, 03:10:50 PM...pissed by some sort of cultural appropriation...

Funny how this often doesn't bother someone until it is their culture being appropriated.  A significant problem in politics.  It has to hit home before it is an issue...or before any semblance of understanding gets in motion.

I think the criticism of the podcast is fair, I listened to it and found it pretty dumb...but not so much so that I turned it off, but I people are taking their choice of the word " gentrification" to seriously and literally as I think that was clearly the "joke"...i took it more so is what PTM Jim expresses, a introduction of call out culture into the "scene" of from outsiders of it, where now bands are experiencing cancellations or worse having people attempt to destroy personal lives, etc...

It may very well be a direct result of the current political environment and the existence of the internet facilitating it... but it's interesting to think that 25 years ago you could have Con-Dom working with a project like Control Resistance but also working with someone like Militia. Or someone like Ulex Xane having comps on zero cabal with projects that have come to be associated as far left or right all there together...I imagine this is what Ron was talking about when he talked about pussification of noise, that people were only into their own transgressions and not accepting or indifferent of others. I also imagine there was just far fewer people butthurt if you told them you didn't like their tape back then and less inclination towards the circle jerk culture where everything is just great.

the way i see it, this is one of the many symptoms of a general cultural trend, the gradual revocation of liberties acquired by the lower classes over the course of XXth century
it started somewhere around 2000 and becomes more noticeable every year
what you are allowed to do, what opinions you're allowed to hold and express - the spectrum gets narrower and narrower
as a result, the degree of edginess that was the norm in the 80s and 90s has become pretty much off limits
and there is no shortage of volunteer thought militias to enforce the new limits,
because this way one can "protest" and "fight evil" and at the same time risk nothing, because what he really fights for is the mainstream, government-approved, corporation-approved, mom-and-pop-approved discourse
and on top of that, not only can you feel good about yourself because you are supposedly changing the world for the better
but you can also enjoy power over other people - the people whose spaces you invade and remodel to your taste
ironically, this is what could make industrial/noise/PE goons relevant again
there's no point in being offensive when you actually offend no one, and this is how it was for quite a long time

Speaking specifically about the local scene there's a lot of crossover between noise/experimental and the LGBTQ+ community and other groups who (typically) share a similar political outlook - I wouldn't expect that they'd just go "oh shit I love this. But.... Whitehouse! Well I guess I better know my place and just be quiet". I find that our scene has pretty much adopted a policy of "no hate/no bullshit" and it's actually a pretty nice thing. Are there edgy PE shows happening that I'm just not aware of? I have no idea (there very well might be?) but I don't see the "cancel culture" everyone is so worried about, you can either get with it or do your own thing. There's a pretty large crossover between the grindcore and noise scenes here so the politics are bound to overlap too.

Quote from: holy ghost on October 07, 2019, 01:22:12 AM
but I don't see the "cancel culture" everyone is so worried about

The one I was specificity thinking about was the Skullflower Matthew Bower, https://thequietus.com/articles/26024-skullflower-matthew-bower-fascism-racism or people trying to block Death In June shows in Chicago..

Quote from: holy ghost on October 07, 2019, 01:22:12 AM
I find that our scene has pretty much adopted a policy of "no hate/no bullshit" and it's actually a pretty nice thing. Are there edgy PE shows happening that I'm just not aware of? I have no idea (there very well might be?) but I don't see the "cancel culture" everyone is so worried about, you can either get with it or do your own thing.

How to cancel something that is not going to happen cause your 'scene' has adopted a policy ? See, that's the 'problem' , is that a music scene or political clique you describe ?

Quote from: Theodore on October 07, 2019, 04:42:09 AM
See, that's the 'problem' , is that a music scene or political clique you describe ?

Damn dude I don't want to sound cliche here but isn't art inherently both?

Quote from: holy ghost on October 07, 2019, 05:24:41 AM

Quote from: Theodore on October 07, 2019, 04:42:09 AM
See, that's the 'problem' , is that a music scene or political clique you describe ?

Damn dude I don't want to sound cliche here but isn't art inherently both?

What matters more ? What's the priority ? Me playing good music or me being a fascist / leftist / whatever ? I think we all know the answer for the kind of scenes like that you described ...

Wont i listen and like Ramirez's noise cause of what he is and the gay-porn covers ? No way ! Does liking him makes me gay friendly ? No way ! Do i care to 'clean' noise from gays, blacks, leftists, fascists, aliens, whatever ? No ! Would i like noise clean of such 'cleaners' and policing ? Yes, it would be better if they stayed away ...

Mentioned Ramirez podcast does illustrate such thing a bit. Of course, often it is a matter of taste. If some sensitive people do not want to listen his Last Rape project, simply due the name - it is fine. Just a matter of taste. I doubt they would rally against it, completely clueless what the actual content of project is. That is explained in interview, and it is quite interesting and perhaps even surprising what concept of Last Rape was/is. To hear more in depth about Last Rape, still requires existence of medium where it can be discussed even if subject is seemingly unpleasant. There are multiple examples that indicate people would prefer not to soil their hands due scene politics.


I recall maybe roughly 10 years ago, Con-Dom had set schedule in Europe, until last minute it turned out someone discovered discogs page with artwork and titles of the mid 80's Con-Dom tapes. Date was cancelled, since he was not interested to crawl in front of people who were not really interested to listen his point. Nor he wanted to make big deal about cancelled show, play the victim card, so to say. I got impression it was just something he rather leave behind as quick as possible and move to next gig. Which is something that is often good move and usually recommended for anyone.

Yet in other hand, for those who came for the show in hopes of seeing Con-Dom, and find out show was cancelled, perhaps would have been illuminating to find out it was because unexplained swastika appeared on tape few decades earlier...and it was problematic hmmm..   In some ways funny, in some ways not. Any time one hears someone say world "problematic", you pretty much know what is about to come... Utter BS, that is.

It does create quite fruitful breeding ground for industrial noise that seeks to irritate people, but also creates lazy reaction machine that doesn't really live up to what one would expect from industrial-noise.

Quote from: holy ghost on October 06, 2019, 01:59:06 AM
Now it's definitely (maybe) the influx of guys from the black metal scene who love that edgy shit. .

I do see this, yet I also see that there are couple things to note.
-Black Metal for most part, ain't really that edgy. Lots of people in industrial that have connections towards BM don't appear to look or sound that way. To me it seems more like "hipsters" that adapt BM aesthetic,  is the more visible phenomena. While BM guys in industrial tend to blend in without sticking out that vividly?
-Black Metal scene, as a whole, seems way way worse than it is in noise - if were are talking about topic here. Paradox perhaps, but it really is well and often displayed. Obvious to see the transition over the years, and escalating at identical timeline with rest of alternative music & popular culture. It is staggering amount of people drawn towards thing they inherently can not accept. So with the influx, I'm sure there is strong possibility you get decent % of that crowd, not the infamous edgelords.

This is only tangentially related, but anyone remember that old Bananafish commentary on the subject of "scene turds" (and freebird-yellers)? From the 90s. Seems to tread much of the terrain covered in this topic. Funniest damn shit I ever read. I can almost but not quite quote the whole passage from memory, but fear anything less than verbatim would not do adequate justice. edit Ends with a suggestion that the scene turd reimburse otherwise satisfied patrons a pro-rated portion of the (refund on the) price of admission for fouling the establishment with their presence. (Ach damn, I've already murdered it.)

If someone could find a scan or quote somewhere that'd be swell.

What he said. Much respect. Thats noise.

Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on October 07, 2019, 10:57:16 AM
This is only tangentially related, but anyone remember that old Bananafish commentary on the subject of "scene turds" (and freebird-yellers)? From the 90s. Seems to tread much of the terrain covered in this topic. Funniest damn shit I ever read. I can almost but not quite quote the whole passage from memory, but fear anything less than verbatim would not do adequate justice. edit Ends with a suggestion that the scene turd reimburse otherwise satisfied patrons a pro-rated portion of the (refund on the) price of admission for fouling the establishment with their presence. (Ach damn, I've already murdered it.)

If someone could find a scan or quote somewhere that'd be swell.

This keeds to be nutted out

It's weird to have a talk about noise. Noise is a problem, it's à disruption. It disprupts.

Nun of you, have been disruptive. You all talked a lot, but...
You are all. All the comentors on this topic are the problem with the gentrification within noise. No shit..

Quote from: slagfrenzy tapes on October 07, 2019, 02:09:19 PM
Nun of you, have been disruptive. You all talked a lot, but...
You are all. All the comentors on this topic are the problem with the gentrification within noise. No shit..

quadruple post with nothing to say. seems you met your goal and are indeed disruptive to the conversation on here. of course that is one way to keep gentrification out. just be a one person unit plugging up your ears shouting "i cant hear you" to everyone who speaks. it only "works" in that there is no community with this method.

Quote from: Harvest on October 07, 2019, 08:00:39 PM

Quote from: slagfrenzy tapes on October 07, 2019, 02:09:19 PM
Nun of you, have been disruptive. You all talked a lot, but...
You are all. All the comentors on this topic are the problem with the gentrification within noise. No shit..

quadruple post with nothing to say. seems you met your goal and are indeed disruptive to the conversation on here. of course that is one way to keep gentrification out. just be a one person unit plugging up your ears shouting "i cant hear you" to everyone who speaks. it only "works" in that there is no community with this method.

don't feed the troll

If I may explain.
Good noise. I quote.
Bloated Slutbag
Still one of the most memorable Merzbow performances was outdoors at a major NTT funded media arts center in Tokyo. At the start of the event, which presumably included various multi-media people, probably Ryoji Ikeda and others, you couldn't get anywhere near the stage...or the giant speaker stacks. When Merz and then-hubby started up the massive crowd, numbering I'd guess in the thousands, dispersed real quick. After making my way to stand right in front of one of the stacks I recognized exactly one noisehead from a few past events, bowed as me and shaking slightly from the bodily pressures. There may have been a handful of others still hanging around by the end, can't recall. Loudest goddamn show ever.

It seems to me that gentrification has replaced the word commerce. The above quote is a good example of not perching to the converted. Gentrification is linked to commerce, to the fear of losing money on your investment. In the example above, Merzbow was never going to be invited back..therefore disruptive,therefore noise.

Protection of a scene is protection of an investment. Gentrification/Commerce.

Quote from: aububs on October 05, 2019, 07:34:05 PM
what events are you referring to? the bristol schimpfluch thing? the lafms thing in london?

Those were both completely amazing :)

If noise was really gentrified then people would actually show up for the gigs :D

Quote from: slagfrenzy tapes on October 07, 2019, 08:19:02 PM
It seems to me that gentrification has replaced the word commerce. The above quote is a good example of not perching to the converted. Gentrification is linked to commerce, to the fear of losing money on your investment. In the example above, Merzbow was never going to be invited back..therefore disruptive,therefore noise.

Protection of a scene is protection of an investment. Gentrification/Commerce.

I would assume, to reduce noise as merely disruptive is hardly accurate. If there would have to be one adjective, I'd rather choose: revelatory.

Especially if being disruptive, equals trolling, then it hardly has relevance in noise since era it was no longer live music for unprepared crowd.

Except, like suggested, people nowadays react on revelatory noise as if it was trolling. If this explanation makes sense?


EDIT:
And on the topic of trolling, forum policy is quite clear on that. Different, unpopular opinions, fine. Repeated trolling means bye bye.

Quote from: Cementimental on October 07, 2019, 08:35:21 PM

Quote from: aububs on October 05, 2019, 07:34:05 PM
what events are you referring to? the bristol schimpfluch thing? the lafms thing in london?

Those were both completely amazing :)

yeah they were incredible. but they're the only things i can think of that fit the "old timers/arts funding" description.

Quote from: aububs on October 07, 2019, 09:06:55 PM

Quote from: Cementimental on October 07, 2019, 08:35:21 PM

Quote from: aububs on October 05, 2019, 07:34:05 PM
what events are you referring to? the bristol schimpfluch thing? the lafms thing in london?

Those were both completely amazing :)

yeah they were incredible. but they're the only things i can think of that fit the "old timers/arts funding" description.

I have no problems with using arts funding or whatever, if it gets you the ability to bring acts that are otherwise unobtainable to your town/city and pay them who could complain about that? Certain ones seem less genuine than others, but I support the idea of using free money when you can get it. I don't view this as part of the problem.

Doesn't Color Out of Space rely on funding as well?

revelatory in the context of open, yes I agree, I would like to include disruption in the context of against conditioning.
Thank you, that was worth thinking about.

Quote from: Cementimental on October 07, 2019, 08:35:21 PM

Quote from: aububs link=topic=10143.msg82317#msg82317 date=1570293
If noise was really gentrified then people would actually show up for the gigs :D
/quote]

I'm jealous, you nailed it.

Quote from: W.K. on October 08, 2019, 01:18:48 AM
Why care so much about what other people are or do?

Perhaps when it comes clear that people are not just making their own "careers", but experiencing noise others are making?
And by the effect of what you could call gentrification (by the definition explained in the Harsh Truths comedy bit, not literal gentrification), climate change, pussification, etc...   you and everybody else may end up hearing lesser good things and not even knowing about the good stuff.

How?

Quote from: holy ghost on October 07, 2019, 01:22:12 AM
Speaking specifically about the local scene there's a lot of crossover between noise/experimental and the LGBTQ+ community and other groups who (typically) share a similar political outlook - I wouldn't expect that they'd just go "oh shit I love this. But.... Whitehouse! Well I guess I better know my place and just be quiet". I find that our scene has pretty much adopted a policy of "no hate/no bullshit"

I recall last year one journalist got super excited about new Cloama album. Rare case of someone actually contacting both artists and label, asking if there could be review done for high profile experimental magazine. Well, I knew how it would play out, so okay, here's the disc do what you please. Expecting nothing. Certainly not review to appear on such magazine. She was writing enthusiast praise and had piece done, until suddenly chief editor pulls out review from lay-out concluding that there seemed to be some "problematic history" and they can not introduce such music to their readers. She was baffled, what is wrong with Cloama since chief did not tell. Contacted me about it. I told her nothing is wrong with it. Just bands he might have played with during last 20 years, or labels he has released on for 20 years. Nothing else.

I don't need and often do not want attention from "big press", yet for sake of something like Cloama, who is fucking brilliant, and rarely gets the exposure it would deserve, gets this type of treatment, and most likely replaced by inferior music just done by person who is suitable for readers and belong to correct political clique. It paints quite ugly picture of integrity of experimental music magazine?

You can look how thing was/is in USA online metal "press". There isn't so shitty and pointless bedroom metal project or silly hipster-gaze, what would have not been praised as best thing happening right now. And just about anyone I know, watches this spectacle little amused and little annoyed. Concluding that lucky us, who are not those who ended up having these people as main sources of recommending good music to check out!

Most people who I know, have concluded that they have almost no idea what is happening in music/noise. Due various reasons which may too vast to deal here. One may selfishly conclude that fuck everybody, it's enough if I find bands I like and I make music I like. Fortunately underground network was not and is not all about that. Guys who run labels, publish 'zines, put out "podcasts", are not solely in business of me me me. There is certain curiosity what often did happen, and what could happen, when artform blossomed and something emerged that inspired and vitalized things for decades. Never, absolutely never, happened due one guy that just cared what he did himself.

You might have nailed this as well. Yr term  revelatory 

I can't add to that. I spend time thinking about it, but it's a lost think...I'd like to add to it but.

Quote from: Lazrs3 on October 06, 2019, 08:32:30 PM

Quote from: moozz on October 06, 2019, 01:48:39 PM

Quote from: Lazrs3 on October 06, 2019, 12:25:58 PM
Ahem, I am a bit guilty there, I remember when at College doing Art, in 1997 Frieze Art Magazine in the UK did a feature on Japanese Noise and there was a free 3"CD with Massona, Merzbow and (I think) Pain Jerk.

The third artist on that 3"CD is MC Hellshit & DJ Carhouse (Yamatsuka Eye on voice and Otomo Yoshihide on turntables).

Thanks, I wasn't being lazy, I would have checked, but somehow managed to lose it years ago. This in my defence was my first 3" CD. I am big on the Inner Demons label who only do 3"CDRs and I have not lost any of them, so decades later I have learned better 3"CD care.

Not that you care, but I'm happy you're more careful of these 20 mins pieces of music. I shit you not.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on October 08, 2019, 09:02:52 AMI recall last year one journalist got super excited about new Cloama album...

It's the same old story. I gave up on so called mainstream music media early in Unrest's existence. There's no point for the example you've just given.

Take The Quietus and their recent series of outing various "problematic" artists and thus doing their bit to ruin them. These are bands and labels who have worked with TQ over the years and now they find themselves stabbed in the back. That's what they get for letting these snakes in in the first place. That's why no one should work with them.

It's perfectly possible to build a label and an organisation that sustains itself without the support of this type of music media.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on October 08, 2019, 09:02:52 AMGuys who run labels, publish 'zines, put out "podcasts", are not solely in business of me me me. There is certain curiosity what often did happen, and what could happen, when artform blossomed and something emerged that inspired and vitalized things for decades. Never, absolutely never, happened due one guy that just cared what he did himself.

This I totally agree with. It's also pretty easy to see who does this and who doesn't.

Quote from: holy ghost on October 07, 2019, 01:22:12 AM
Speaking specifically about the local scene there's a lot of crossover between noise/experimental and the LGBTQ+ community and other groups who (typically) share a similar political outlook - I wouldn't expect that they'd just go "oh shit I love this. But.... Whitehouse! Well I guess I better know my place and just be quiet". I find that our scene has pretty much adopted a policy of "no hate/no bullshit" and it's actually a pretty nice thing. Are there edgy PE shows happening that I'm just not aware of? I have no idea (there very well might be?) but I don't see the "cancel culture" everyone is so worried about, you can either get with it or do your own thing. There's a pretty large crossover between the grindcore and noise scenes here so the politics are bound to overlap too.

I think it is interesting that you mention this, as I think that the "I know my place" mentality and its accompanying modesty have largely been ejected from modern culture.  Everyone just wants openings to be handed to them without having to put forth effort and earn their right to have one.

That all being said, it is always nice to be open and inviting to new people who are interested in what your community is also interested in - even if that means putting up with someone who might not completely agree with much of what they encounter once they join.  The real problem arises when they expect everyone else to change and conform to their tastes (sometimes they are right about what is wrong though!).  The area in which I am located has had some people force shows to shut down (Marduk, if I remember correctly), so as long as your scene doesn't do so then that is great for everyone.

Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on October 08, 2019, 07:49:56 PMThat all being said, it is always nice to be open and inviting to new people who are interested in what your community is also interested in - even if that means putting up with someone who might not completely agree with much of what they encounter once they join.  The real problem arises when they expect everyone else to change and conform to their tastes (sometimes they are right about what is wrong though!).  The area in which I am located has had some people force shows to shut down (Marduk, if I remember correctly), so as long as your scene doesn't do so then that is great for everyone.

I can't speak on behalf of "my scene" but I do know there's a lot of people not thrilled about certain elements and simply created their own space and their own culture around it and done their own thing. After all, no one "speaks for noise" as a whole with any authority and as a music genre/sub culture is always evolving and changing. I don't think there's any huge divisions, I don't think there's really any drama. I mean we're talking about making a welcoming space for people here. It's not that radical a concept, even for "noise music".

Quote from: holy ghost on October 09, 2019, 07:17:59 PM

Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on October 08, 2019, 07:49:56 PMThat all being said, it is always nice to be open and inviting to new people who are interested in what your community is also interested in - even if that means putting up with someone who might not completely agree with much of what they encounter once they join.  The real problem arises when they expect everyone else to change and conform to their tastes (sometimes they are right about what is wrong though!).  The area in which I am located has had some people force shows to shut down (Marduk, if I remember correctly), so as long as your scene doesn't do so then that is great for everyone.

I can't speak on behalf of "my scene" but I do know there's a lot of people not thrilled about certain elements and simply created their own space and their own culture around it and done their own thing. After all, no one "speaks for noise" as a whole with any authority and as a music genre/sub culture is always evolving and changing. I don't think there's any huge divisions, I don't think there's really any drama. I mean we're talking about making a welcoming space for people here. It's not that radical a concept, even for "noise music".

I totally agree.  It is basic politeness to be willing to allow other interested people come and join in - especially if you want to call yourself a "scene."  It doesn't matter what you are doing.  I also like that you point out how people in your area are actively taking a role in creating their own spaces.  Instead of merely complaining about something, it is far more worthwhile to go out and be productive in ways that you deem more positive.  To me, that should be a sign of a healthy scene rather than a precursor to any degradation.

I am thoroughly and completely bored with propaganda or advertising of any kind in recorded or printed/visual artistic mediums.  I do not give people money to hear them tell me about about how I should follow their ideologies, whether it be "anarchy", whatever ridiculous "uprising" nonsense people are on about, or anything else.  Parodies also bore me.  Most noise artists are not funny, not revelatory, utterly banal in their little satires and meme culture.   I can appreciate a certain theatricality with noise and power electronics, so long as it is not a "call to action".  I look at noise as art, just not generally made by people who go to art galleries, and as such, concepts presented should raise questions, or at least conversations.

What I see is a general shift in sadists VS. masochists.   The purported sadists are being integrated with too many masochists, and the lines are being blurred in ways that the sadists dislike, so the purported sadists complain, and therefore welcome the masochists to act as sadists.  The problem is that the roles of sadism and masochism are being blurred.  Being into noise is inherently masochistic, to some degree, but now, the forum for the type of people who pretend to be sadists but are actually masochists because they only rip the wings off of butterflies until someone bigger than them comes around to "put them in their place", those people are being exposed, as well as people who have an actual vision or idea that isn't necessarily pleasant.  Both are masochists, some are more valiant than others, and now the people who out them are not necessarily 100% sadists, but not entirely masochists either, and they have an outlet now.  Prior to that, they were 100& masochists, and it was nice.  They didn't try to play every show, they just attended with the hopes of getting their heads blown off by noise.  Now, I don't know what the hell people go to shows for, I rarely see people come to shows who don't do noise and aren't in it for some sort of "networking opportunity".  Total masochism. 

Take for instance, the wealthy person who moves above or nearby a music venue, then complains about the noise.  Those people deserve to be shot, and they know it. 

Also, Sadly, I can't name too many venues that allow loudness, I mean truly loud noise anymore, much less nazi/misogynistic imagery, etc.  It has become largely pointless, especially if you're going to be sharing a bill with someone who will complain about not having enough time to set up, and another who takes way too long to set up, and all of them are either sucking off the corpses of former glories and just sucking.     And nobody knows how to use their expensive synthesizers. 

I have always preferred the idea of noise infiltrating other scenes, and I prefer to go to shows with diverse line ups, in which case, at the very least, it is good to "turn & burn" after pissing everybody off and let the chips fall where they may. 

I don't really mind Noise and power electronics becoming more popular.  As mentioned above, I still don't see a lot of people showing up, but I'll add that people don't show up typically unless it's an artist who is good-looking, generally, so everyone's subconscious is somewhat to blame for this so called "gentrification" of noise.   I am a full-on supporter of ugly and mean motherfuckers with ugly approaches to life, as long as they have basic manners.    People who have actually abused and raped people make it bad for those who are just trying to work out their own personal fetishes and traumas, or just their crazy ideas, and I do think it's important to make that distinction in terms of "cancel culture".   

Quote from: PTM Jim on October 05, 2019, 07:16:43 PMIt is 100% the WORST thing that has happened to the scene, at least in the US. I blame the punks for coming in because it was something new to them and then them bringing their punk morals and attempting (read: pretty much successfully) to completely change the dynamics. It's a microcosm of call-out culture.
I don't understand why anyone would even be interested in something that they are so appalled by and have the nerve to come in and change what has existed many many years before they were born.

I agree with your entire paragraph completely, as it's quite accurate especially in the US. You're correct in your assessment about punks being the ones to blame, they've definitely tried to re-brand with their values. I kind of feel like there was a period of that same kind of shit with black metal in the 2006-2007 era in the US, where they tried doing that same thing and then eventually somewhat backing off most of it now, especially when it countered their values to such a point that they couldn't force or try to hide the misanthropic views any longer without being hippycrits. I think they kind of abandoned it in a sense, not a battle worth fighting for so to speak and their not going to wear Burzum shirts anymore especially in 2023, like they might have back in 2006. I think noise is on it's way out anyways, it was just this thing for the moment like black metal was for them at that time. Feel like punks today especially seem to gravitate more to being punk as an "idea", social movement or set of mortal values then just some people who like killer music, but of course NOT all punks are to blame for this.

i'm into PE HN since around 95'liked how it was back then 100% more than now - start to HATE the underground in general NOISE include why - none of your business.

This thread is pretty funny to read from a Brazilian perspective, because experimental and noise is a rich people's game around here, mostly. You got God Pussy as the sole exception, and some broken bedroom noise heads too far from each other and with no clout at all in the wealthy scenes you people are used to. The cost for cassette releases are prohibitive here, not even a possibility for the "middle class". Noisecore aside that's the reality down here: no daddy money = no scene/no venues/no kvlt physical releases/no gringo love.
It doesn't help that a lot of our noise is pretty lackluster tho! :)

I find Instagram is particularly entertaining for this. Various labels/artists posting such hilarious statement's as "If you dont support trans rights then noise isnt for you!"

Quote from: EXU on December 29, 2023, 06:34:15 AMThis thread is pretty funny to read from a Brazilian perspective, because experimental and noise is a rich people's game around here, mostly. You got God Pussy as the sole exception, and some broken bedroom noise heads too far from each other and with no clout at all in the wealthy scenes you people are used to. The cost for cassette releases are prohibitive here, not even a possibility for the "middle class". Noisecore aside that's the reality down here: no daddy money = no scene/no venues/no kvlt physical releases/no gringo love.
It doesn't help that a lot of our noise is pretty lackluster tho! :)

wow. I always considered noise to be the most budget friendly form of expression. As an outsider what is a low income route for producing sound in Brazil?

Standing at the fruit aisle at hypermarket, recording industrial drone from cooling device and clanking shopping carts - talk about gentrified noise! Oh, the stench of the middle class. Came to think of this topic.

Quote from: Leewar on December 29, 2023, 12:59:41 PMI find Instagram is particularly entertaining for this. Various labels/artists posting such hilarious statement's as "If you dont support trans rights then noise isnt for you!"

I'm almost impressed with that level of bullshit.

Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on December 30, 2023, 04:53:37 AM

Quote from: Leewar on December 29, 2023, 12:59:41 PMI find Instagram is particularly entertaining for this. Various labels/artists posting such hilarious statement's as "If you dont support trans rights then noise isnt for you!"

I'm almost impressed with that level of bullshit.

Pretty bold statements from those people, i have to say.

Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on December 30, 2023, 04:53:37 AM

Quote from: Leewar on December 29, 2023, 12:59:41 PMI find Instagram is particularly entertaining for this. Various labels/artists posting such hilarious statement's as "If you dont support trans rights then noise isnt for you!"

I'm almost impressed with that level of bullshit.

Ok. So i have to quit noise and do something else.

Quote from: Confuzzled on December 29, 2023, 05:51:41 PMwow. I always considered noise to be the most budget friendly form of expression. As an outsider what is a low income route for producing sound in Brazil?

Anyone can produce sound for free with a smartphone, computer or some cheap recorder, I guess you are coming from this angle, and there are plenty of bedroom projects scattered across a giant country with no scenes per se. You got the rich academics circle jerk that have some kind of structure but the underground experimental is pretty much a bunch of islands, hard to connect physically, usually broken people with no time and a lot of problems, with no place to play, no labels to release outside of digital and a lot with the language barrier to deal with. Maybe I'm playing the victim here but even sustaining a normal band is very difficult around here, too much territory, too little money, and not enough interest in any kind of alternative culture. Travelling outside is too expensive and other South America countries face similar problems so a gig is too costly, etc.
Making noise is one thing, but being heard and creating a "scene" is another, no one cares about a bunch of weirdos doing digital releases, there's too much of that, this forum is an example: do you think Finland is the greatest noise country? Not shiting on finnoise, just kinda jealous of the level of unity and forward thinking, also the means to be able to consume and produce physical items.

Quote from: Leewar on December 29, 2023, 12:59:41 PMI find Instagram is particularly entertaining for this. Various labels/artists posting such hilarious statement's as "If you dont support trans rights then noise isnt for you!"

That's such a tiresomely 2023 take. Shouldn't the fashionable new thing be, if you don't hate Israel then noise isn't for you?

If you want to wage your own Kampf on insta/Twitter 24/7, then have at it. On some level it isn't any more absurd than putting your music out on cassette tapes in editions of 25. What I find intolerable is the sanctimony and the self-righteousness.

Quote from: EXU on December 30, 2023, 07:48:12 PMMaking noise is one thing, but being heard and creating a "scene" is another, no one cares about a bunch of weirdos doing digital releases, there's too much of that, this forum is an example: do you think Finland is the greatest noise country? Not shiting on finnoise, just kinda jealous of the level of unity and forward thinking, also the means to be able to consume and produce physical items.

Was there a word missing there, I wonder?

Anyway, whether that statement is true or not I have no idea. The Finnish scene is certainly doing pretty well at the moment. But it has very little to do with money. Because the fact is that Finland is not a wealthy country. By that metric all other Nordic nations should have better scenes, Estonia as well, if not now, then a few years from now. Whatever the reasons are, they are somewhere else.

Quote from: Atrophist on December 30, 2023, 10:23:19 PMWas there a word missing there, I wonder?

Anyway, whether that statement is true or not I have no idea. The Finnish scene is certainly doing pretty well at the moment. But it has very little to do with money. Because the fact is that Finland is not a wealthy country. By that metric all other Nordic nations should have better scenes, Estonia as well, if not now, then a few years from now. Whatever the reasons are, they are somewhere else.

Nah, dude, that's not a metric, it's part of a big useless ranting, didn't mean to doubt Finn's street cred or something. Some reasons for me are the ones I pointed out right after the highlighted phrase.
Sorry for the bad English too.

Quote from: Atrophist on December 30, 2023, 10:07:07 PMWhat I find intolerable is the sanctimony and the self-righteousness.

This. Always.

I think topic is not really about "gentrification", but nevertheless interesting one:

Quote from: Atrophist on December 30, 2023, 10:23:19 PM

Quote from: EXU on December 30, 2023, 07:48:12 PMMaking noise is one thing, but being heard and creating a "scene" is another, no one cares about a bunch of weirdos doing digital releases, there's too much of that, this forum is an example: do you think Finland is the greatest noise country? Not shiting on finnoise, just kinda jealous of the level of unity and forward thinking, also the means to be able to consume and produce physical items.

Was there a word missing there, I wonder?

Anyway, whether that statement is true or not I have no idea. The Finnish scene is certainly doing pretty well at the moment. But it has very little to do with money. Because the fact is that Finland is not a wealthy country. By that metric all other Nordic nations should have better scenes, Estonia as well, if not now, then a few years from now. Whatever the reasons are, they are somewhere else.

I think Finnish scene was "noticed" abroad about year 2000. That is what some of the big boys tell me from abroad. Like guys of Tesco always mentioning how "Degenerating Finland" comp CD that established names that were just starting out and good things coming out. Already back then, there was gigs with 100-200 people attending, lots of releases, lots of artists, but within the years happens several different moments you could separate as different "eras" / "periods" of Finnish noise.

I would say some things need to grow and evolve. Someone got to start, someone got to feed energy and ideas. Someone got to communicate with people, invite people, promote ideas and ways how things are done. It might be fact that at this time of the world, a lot of things that worked well in 2000, do not work anymore. Specific moment in history is gone and idea of repeating the same won't work anyways.  Any scene, is based on collective energy and something cumulating, something emerging that formerly was perhaps even unthinkable.

My recent post on Noisextra one example. Over here, I can't think anyone who would have suggested "house gig" for noise. When I started to hear about that type of American noise scene, I was kind of amazed since in Europe there has traditionally been youth houses, squats, galleries, bars, venues to rent, etc etc. Even if idea of throwing party at your house is the most common idea, I never heard that there would have been so many of those here? Think how easy would be host ambient gig for dozen people, even in apartment?

When I started, it was in middle of worst economic depression of early 90's. Everything collapsing in Finland. Just about everybody unemployed and broke. Small town of 30000 people, no knowledge and barely ideas how and what to do and nobody to show how. Level was exactly zero-resources:  "I have no gear, nor I know what even exists" and "I have no money to buy even more than set of 3 blank tapes unless someone pays for it". What was done, was make best of that situation. When I see complaints that there is nothing here, it seems like great moment to start filling the empty space and generally creative minds start to reach each other and communicate. Of course, like I mentioned before, we live in different times now, so many times when past when people leaned to check out things just to escape boredom and feeling of nothing to do, nowadays situation might be that you do not need to awake people from "boredom", but for example, from their feeling of "being busy" or being jaded.

On the "gentrification" issue, just stay clear of social media and you won't even notice - works for me.

The other discussion is more interesting, I think. Why does a local/national scene thrive at a given moment and not at another? I'm situated in Denmark and have tried to organize gigs, but the turnouts have been bad - 13 paying guests for Trepaneringsritualen, 9 (I think) for Arktau Eos, both pretty big names, one would think. That has meant huge economic losses, obviously, as the artists got paid and had all costs covered as they should. Here it seems like if you're not in Copenhagen, nothing on the live scene can really succeed unless anchored locally, where the scene consists of either "old" people who don't really partake in anything anymore or PC punk-ajacent vegan types whose culture and interests are just, well...different...

It would seem on that background that now is the perfect time to do something and (re-)fill the void and bring some real industrial/noise to the people as was done in the '90s when I discovered industrial music and culture via a series of gigs with DIJ, Blood Axis etc. which opened up to a lot of other stuff. But organizing shit for empty venues becomes both tiring and expensive in the end.

So how come it can be done in the neighbouring countries, even in smaller towns? I would love to know the recipe. We have a few good recording acts scattered across the country, but even though we all kind of know (of) each other, we can't seem to make things come together for live events which, at least to me, is a crucial element of having a thriving national scene. The result is that we all look outwards and release on international labels, big and small, and play live in other countries if at all (this is partly a good thing, but it means that there is not much going on nationally).

We'll see, maybe I'll try again this coming year to get some stuff going, mainly because I'd like to go to more gigs and they're simply not happening. Just my perspective from Jutland, Denmark where there is only a handful of people into this kind of shit who all seem to prefer the home listening experience over actively participating.

Heh! Maybe you need social media for spreading the word a bit!

However, I'm in the same boat in Dublin. Have been doing a small bi-monthly club night for neofolk, martial industrial, power electronics, noise, etc., for the last seven or eight years. Also organised a couple of gigs on the cheap which barely broke even. As for the club night - since Covid attendance has been pretty dire, for the most part. The last one was last month, and we had about 14 people. It was fun, but you'd like to be getting more than 20! I suppose our effort would use cultural references more from the right side, and there is - or at least, was - a collective of crusty vegan types putting on the odd noise gig. This, by the way, does not qualify as 'gentrification' of noise! I went to a few, and there wasn't a big crowd, either. Maybe we need to accept that this sort of thing is just a very marginal area of popular culture! Also, are thriving 'scenes' anywhere, anymore? As you say, most people have grown older, probably don't go out as much. There don't seem to be as many 'big' gigs going on as there used to be.

Quote from: Phenol on December 31, 2023, 01:21:18 PMOn the "gentrification" issue, just stay clear of social media and you won't even notice - works for me.

This forum is social media, but I think you meant the more obvious suspects.

Quote from: Phenol on December 31, 2023, 01:21:18 PMI'm situated in Denmark and have tried to organize gigs, but the turnouts have been bad - 13 paying guests for Trepaneringsritualen, 9 (I think) for Arktau Eos, both pretty big names, one would think. That has meant huge economic losses, obviously, as the artists got paid and had all costs covered as they should. Here it seems like if you're not in Copenhagen, nothing on the live scene can really succeed unless anchored locally, where the scene consists of either "old" people who don't really partake in anything anymore or PC punk-ajacent vegan types whose culture and interests are just, well...different...

...

It seems to me it perhaps would have been better to start small, and build up a local scene, over time, and then bring in bigger names from outside? Persistence, and regularity is the key, in my opinion. Venues are the bottleneck, everything else is pretty easy these days. Instead of putting on noise etc. shows in mainstream bars or clubs, try to think outside the box. Here in Finland it almost seems like a rule in the local scene, that the more unlikely the venue, the better the show, hehe.

Long post, due it is really interesting topic that many times being discussed, but always keeps amazing.

There are different ways and reasons people do experimental/noise shows. When Trepaneringsritualen or Arktau Eos played in Finland, I feel their shows have been very often NOT among noise crowd. It's more like experimental stuff that current music guys know. I don't say that as derogatory purpose at all. Trepaneringsritualen has happened in bars/venue with bunch of slow and heavy music band and not really noise. If Aural Hypnox bands would play, you could expect perhaps more audience from metal scene than from harsh heads - even if A.H. bands have very little to do with metal music. This makes one think who should know about gigs that are being done. Where advertise, where organize etc. Who to put on the bill with them, that even people who have no idea what's up, could recognize it as event that could be interesting.

We have seen organizers who bring the BIG names related to noise. Years ago we had Consumer Electronics, Ramleh, Wolf Eyes, BDN, Bastard Noise, Pain Jerk, Merzbow, and many more, who were clearly brought here by professional organizers as names that should interest, and in combination with right kind of bands, they are the names underground alternative music listener recognizes and may go check out. Bigger venues with easy access, often sort of "freaky element" play together with bands that more usual crowd likes.

Too small name wouldn't work like that, but thing is some of the older names that were great back in the day aren't that amazing compared to some guys at very top of the game right now. I think this is two different types of crowds. Some who want to catch the "artists you should see" and then there is audience who couldn't care less about someone who was at their best 30 years ago. Simply into good noise and not in need for see someone with veteran status.

On somewhat related note, when got the feeling that Grunt was sort of heading into this "name you know" / "freaky band for music event" -scene, it was among big reasons to stop gigs until more interesting noise gigs will be doable. I see very little if any value to warm up some completely unrelated music band, (unless it would be direct invitation from the band members themselves.)

I think the crucial point that realizing there are (at least) "two crowds", and even with certain amount of % cross over, it is very much possible that one has to think for who and how you are doing things. In my opinion this applies also for running label, distro, zine whatever. Very blunt and roughly made generalizations without the talking about obvious grey areas between:
The more commercial idea relies that there is existing audience and just to bring something, release something, offer to consumer, and that will be it. (as example: This can work in city or country where is already existing and established network/scene/etc. It's easy to open metal music record store in city with thousand metalheads, bands labels, gigs, etc. Less easy to do it in city where seems to be nothing and no culture where it would be related to.)

On more grass root level alternative, it is far more about personal communication. You know couple, or bunch of guys, you talk to them, you know just about everybody feels "we should do something". When you let them know this or that is coming to play if we just set up show, everybody is excited. It's as simple as thinking how going to gigs used to be talking with friends (who's coming? Who's driving?).. as opposed to now you have lots of gigs where familymen arrive alone, who have not talked to anyone in months. At least I see lots of this.

In RAC scene it used to be very common that skin clubs would arrange bus ride. Rent bus or two, and then everybody and their friends would have heavy duty road trip to see something. In noise gig, if someone would announce there is minibus drive from Helsinki to turku and back, I'm sure it would be full quick. With guys who otherwise skip going as they don't bother to use public transportation -most often the return trip in middle of night.

Social aspect can not be underestimated, and for a lot of shows, I feel nowadays would be benefit to return back to days when people would actually contact their friends, ask along, remind their friends, mention others someone is organizing show. I think there is huge gap in information where things are happening, but you will only hear afterwards, since most appear to assume everybody follows social media. I don't think noise show is merely the act of distortion from speakers. Just like noise release isn't just sound from speakers, but relation to so many things in life.

Back in the day, to solve some challenges, in Finland was "crew" called S.I.C.K. - Suomi Industrial Chaos Kollektive, hah.. there was talk about it in Finnish Noise topic that originally was about SICK reports as far as I remember. I wasn't even involved in early gigs, but later did little things in favor of kollektive. Idea was simply that if there is like 5...8..10 guys, who will chip in 50 euro, and as a result, there can be brought things like Wertham or Mutant Ape or something that would be unlikely to be profitable. If some money actually remains, it will be used to fly over something again that makes very little sense financially, but gets done. And certainly, things got done and several gigs organized. Crew itself being almost enough to qualify as minimum crow show needs, hah, you wouldn't need more than bunch more people to get it work out perfect. Lots of killer shows that had... 20.. 30? 50 people? I guess hard to say eventually when SICK ended and when it just wasn't necessary. Mostly same guys did more shows after kollektive had put things in motion and then things started to work out just fine without it. When "network" existed and was drawing new people in.

Nowadays there is not so much absolute NEED for such collective plus these days the also you'd need to weed out any potential drama queens instantly to keep things working. That would be my advice for anyone wanting to do something in situation where nothing is happening. If you are living in city where exists even a little phenomena of some kind of alternative culture, it may be enough. I know it is horrible task for introverted guys to be asked to reach out to even moderately likeminded people and communicate with them, but that's what one has to do. It's the reality outside virtual world. (If one prefers virtual scene, then there is no shortage of things to experience virtually.)

I personally can't believe that if there is city where exists other music cultures, art scenes, and so on.. that noise could not flourish if leg work is done, so to say.

Quote from: Leewar on December 29, 2023, 12:59:41 PMI find Instagram is particularly entertaining for this. Various labels/artists posting such hilarious statement's as "If you dont support trans rights then noise isnt for you!"

What labels are actually doing this? I only follow a few, so I'm not aware of all irritating shit that's happening in social media.

Quote from: Manhog_84 on January 03, 2024, 06:14:26 PM

Quote from: Leewar on December 29, 2023, 12:59:41 PMI find Instagram is particularly entertaining for this. Various labels/artists posting such hilarious statement's as "If you dont support trans rights then noise isnt for you!"

What labels are actually doing this? I only follow a few, so I'm not aware of all irritating shit that's happening in social media.

As far as i remember mostly labels that consist of opening a Bandcamp account and releasing 100 'noise' compilations a week.

Power electronics and noise was originally created by people who realized the superiority of their own ideas to those around them. They wanted to created something unique from what had already existed.
It is something that exists entirely outside anything that could be expressed in a form that could be universalized.
Egalitarian thinking, such as 'we need more POCs in noise' or 'we need more w*men in noise just for the sake of it'; and subsequent gentrification, will eventually destroy the genre.

Quote from: nezalezhnye on January 20, 2024, 12:25:21 PMPower electronics and noise was originally created by people who realized the superiority of their own ideas to those around them. They wanted to created something unique from what had already existed.
It is something that exists entirely outside anything that could be expressed in a form that could be universalized.
Egalitarian thinking, such as 'we need more POCs in noise' or 'we need more w*men in noise just for the sake of it'; and subsequent gentrification, will eventually destroy the genre.

Hear hear

I think that this kind of forced democratization will eventually gentrificate any genre or subculture. It may not destroy genres completely but it will domesticate them by standardization of thought and expression.

"Most noise artists are not funny, not revelatory, utterly banal in their little satires and meme culture. "

RIP noise and industrial subculture.

All genres peak and decline, look at the history of music.

Quote from: Thermophile on January 28, 2024, 03:26:55 PM"Most noise artists are not funny, not revelatory, utterly banal in their little satires and meme culture. "

RIP noise and industrial subculture.

All genres peak and decline, look at the history of music.

I feel that the situation is quite opposite really. Noise and industrial culture in general are very much alive and vibrant at the moment. New quality acts emerging all the time, top notch releases and zine / podcast content created etc.

I feel that the fear of gentrification and threat of tourist entryism may in fact be seen as an benefit for the scene, as it strengthens the espirit de corps and sense of unity. Maybe the return, even partial, to the underground and countercultural roots of industrial culture wouldn't be bad thing at all?

Quote from: Commander15 on January 29, 2024, 10:00:08 AMI feel that the situation is quite opposite really. Noise and industrial culture in general are very much alive and vibrant at the moment. New quality acts emerging all the time, top notch releases and zine / podcast content created etc.

I feel that the fear of gentrification and threat of tourist entryism may in fact be seen as an benefit for the scene, as it strengthens the espirit de corps and sense of unity. Maybe the return, even partial, to the underground and countercultural roots of industrial culture wouldn't be bad thing at all?

So long as it remains under the guidance of its original impulse, it will not cease.

Agree with these last two. Once it enters the public sphere, the little satires and meme culture matter not a damn but for those to whom little satires and meme culture matter. At least, that's what I meme myself.

Quote from: nezalezhnye on January 20, 2024, 12:25:21 PMPower electronics and noise was originally created by people who realized the superiority of their own ideas to those around them. They wanted to created something unique from what had already existed.
It is something that exists entirely outside anything that could be expressed in a form that could be universalized.
Egalitarian thinking, such as 'we need more POCs in noise' or 'we need more w*men in noise just for the sake of it'; and subsequent gentrification, will eventually destroy the genre.

Surely noise culture isn't that fragile? To suddenly self destroy if people who have a different view from what was common 40 years ago get interested?

Personally I think that time has shown noise & industrial culture to be somewhat immune to gentrification and commercialization. Out of all the punk-adjacent subcultures including punk itself that were formed in the late 70s, industrial and later noise culture has been the only to stay consistently DIY and underground, not to mention very anti-commercial. There have been some crossover to more accepted, commercial music scenes but even with Merzbow and some others breaking thru the barrier into larger popular culture awareness, they haven't REALLY pulled the subculture with them. Noise and industrial is still as introverted and obtuse as it ever was. If some people demand more representation for minorities like is common in other cultural movements, no one is in any way obliged to give in. Then again i'm sure there are many active people in the culture who agree with that sentiment, at least to some degree, and will either consciously or subconsciously give minorities (meaning everyone who's not white and male I guess) opportunities to participate. And personally I see that as essential for noise to develop and mutate and stay relevant. Industrial and noise has always been open to all kinds of misfits and weirdos, and I strongly resent any attempt to gatekeep new artists based on their political or cultural opinions or values, even if they clash with the traditions of the culture. Were noise to shrivel into an "edgy boys club" I personally would quickly lose interest.

When there's no real money involved, people can make their own decisions and follow their own values. There's room in noise for everyone and no one is forced to listen or work with people they don't want to.

Quote from: host body on January 30, 2024, 04:35:11 PMThen again i'm sure there are many active people in the culture who agree with that sentiment, at least to some degree, and will either consciously or subconsciously give minorities (meaning everyone who's not white and male I guess) opportunities to participate. And personally I see that as essential for noise to develop and mutate and stay relevant. Industrial and noise has always been open to all kinds of misfits and weirdos, and I strongly resent any attempt to gatekeep new artists based on their political or cultural opinions or values, even if they clash with the traditions of the culture. Were noise to shrivel into an "edgy boys club" I personally would quickly lose interest.

I don't think anyone send his demos or even posting his music online accompanied with a note I m white, black, male, straight, Asian etc. Do you have good material, talent ? No one can stop you. With very few exceptions the vast majority of those who underlining their identity are 'minority members' with mediocre / bad material. Why ? You answered why. For an opportunity that they don't deserve just given cause of their color, gender, religion. Pretty racist, isn't ?

Quote from: Theodore on February 02, 2024, 03:49:07 AM

Quote from: host body on January 30, 2024, 04:35:11 PMThen again i'm sure there are many active people in the culture who agree with that sentiment, at least to some degree, and will either consciously or subconsciously give minorities (meaning everyone who's not white and male I guess) opportunities to participate. And personally I see that as essential for noise to develop and mutate and stay relevant. Industrial and noise has always been open to all kinds of misfits and weirdos, and I strongly resent any attempt to gatekeep new artists based on their political or cultural opinions or values, even if they clash with the traditions of the culture. Were noise to shrivel into an "edgy boys club" I personally would quickly lose interest.

I don't think anyone send his demos or even posting his music online accompanied with a note I m white, black, male, straight, Asian etc. Do you have good material, talent ? No one can stop you. With very few exceptions the vast majority of those who underlining their identity are 'minority members' with mediocre / bad material. Why ? You answered why. For an opportunity that they don't deserve just given cause of their color, gender, religion. Pretty racist, isn't ?

If only it were that simple.

It could be curious to know what is the notable difference. There has been discussion in other forums I know, including the Finnish language ones that has certain people who would praise specific project for "freshness". But only difference that is there, is gender or race. But when it becomes question what in their work, in the artistic output, is the interesting... Suddenly there appears to be revelation that guys who pretended to be open minded and fresh, are the most horrid examples of tokenism, while many of the bad boys were ALWAYS globally connected and supporting the wide spectrum of noise creators.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on February 02, 2024, 06:42:29 PMIt could be curious to know what is the notable difference. There has been discussion in other forums I know, including the Finnish language ones that has certain people who would praise specific project for "freshness". But only difference that is there, is gender or race. But when it becomes question what in their work, in the artistic output, is the interesting... Suddenly there appears to be revelation that guys who pretended to be open minded and fresh, are the most horrid examples of tokenism, while many of the bad boys were ALWAYS globally connected and supporting the wide spectrum of noise creators.

That was my point, really. The noise scene has always been really good at assimilating new people even if they don't initially share the aesthetic, political or whatever viewpoint was common at the time. I don't see it changing anytime soon, and my response was mostly aimed at the poster and everyone else thinking there's a wave of gentrification in process that will kill the noise scene.