(serious) Paypal account suspension due to "offensive" material/titles

Started by deutscheasphalt, February 04, 2020, 02:57:31 PM

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MyrtleLake

Two thoughts relevant to the issue:

Welcome to the monopoly economy. The defining factor is a narrow selection of services that all effectively serve a narrow slice of the same product without any defining difference. It is the "illusion of choice."

And second, this point highlights a bit of my pet-peeve. If you lose the convenience of *instantly* buying something, then artists and labels would have to make more adequate numbers of releases. I am old enough to remember buying international mail orders and posting letters for releases which might arrive two months later. Yet they always did. These days, I have instant payment options and can't find many releases 24hrs after they are posted (sold out).

Lastly, I have always been envious of the IBAN transfer system in Europe. Here, in the USA, transfers are charged exorbitant fees (i.e. minimum $15 each regardless of amount). Why more people don't utilize this in Europe is foreign to me. PayPal--as an American company--makes some sense when you weigh the options. While it is, I agree, immoral to hold moneys that can be transferred instantly for up to a week, it is still better than paying the fees associated with instant transfers.

Personally, I would be very happy to send Postal Money orders as I did in the 20th century, but I expect no one would have any stock to fulfill my orders because they all want to be superficially "underground."

deutscheasphalt

Quote from: MyrtleLake on February 07, 2020, 12:16:14 AM
If you lose the convenience of *instantly* buying something, then artists and labels would have to make more adequate numbers of releases. I am old enough to remember buying international mail orders and posting letters for releases which might arrive two months later. Yet they always did. These days, I have instant payment options and can't find many releases 24hrs after they are posted (sold out). 
Not sure if I understand you correctly so let me know if I am missing your point, but as I see it the demand is pretty much unrelated to payment method (I guess only thing you can argue is an amount of people being too lazy to buy a release that's exclusively sold through snail mail, so that could slightly decrease the demand based on less instant payment methods).
The point that more labels/artists should be aware of adequate amount of copies stands on its own. If a release is completely sold out and gets a discogs ratio hugely in favor of wants, there's really no reason to not repress it - it's free money.

Quote from: MyrtleLake on February 07, 2020, 12:16:14 AMWhy more people don't utilize this in Europe is foreign to me.
Same. The only reason I can imagine is pure stupidity and sheep mentality.

Hatefukk

So let me get this straight, they banned your account for Genocide Organ related items????

Theodore

Dont know for other EU countries but banks in Greece still have a fee for transfers even in EU, at least last time i checked -not long ago- they had. Which makes Paypal better option for most cases !

About their policies ? Dont get me started ! Example : They were telling people to use e-banking, they still promote it, it is free to create an account through internet. Many use it. Then a month ago people noticed that bank had taken 5EUR from their accounts for e-banking account fee ! Without any warning or giving people the option to decide if they still wanted to have an account that they had to pay for from now on. People, news, even gov got angry with them. Then banks said it was a 'system' 's mistake, blame the software haha. Yes, software has an excuse for its error !! 'E-banking account fee' ! They canceled this plan and returned the money back. - But that's the way they operate. They even charge you if you change your card PIN !
"ἀθάνατοι θνητοί, θνητοὶ ἀθάνατοι, ζῶντες τὸν ἐκείνων θάνατον, τὸν δὲ ἐκείνων βίον τεθνεῶτες"

deutscheasphalt

Quote from: Hatefukk on February 07, 2020, 02:48:26 AM
So let me get this straight, they banned your account for Genocide Organ related items????
They banned my account for selling a Streicher record and now are forcing me to remove all items related to Streicher, G.O. and Mauthausen Orchestra.

Salute

Quote from: deutscheasphalt on February 07, 2020, 01:02:25 AM
Quote from: MyrtleLake on February 07, 2020, 12:16:14 AMWhy more people don't utilize this in Europe is foreign to me.
Same. The only reason I can imagine is pure stupidity and sheep mentality.

Indeed. For some reason people inside Europe, especially Germans, want to use Paypal instead of bank transfer which is weird. I always use and prefer bank transfer within Europe but some seem to be even reluctant towards it, meaning when buying goods. At least in Finland it's free.

deutscheasphalt

Quote from: Salute on February 07, 2020, 01:53:28 PM
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on February 07, 2020, 01:02:25 AM
Quote from: MyrtleLake on February 07, 2020, 12:16:14 AMWhy more people don't utilize this in Europe is foreign to me.
Same. The only reason I can imagine is pure stupidity and sheep mentality.
Indeed. For some reason people inside Europe, especially Germans, want to use Paypal instead of bank transfer which is weird. I always use and prefer bank transfer within Europe but some seem to be even reluctant towards it, meaning when buying goods. At least in Finland it's free.
Noted. From my experience, Germans are definitely up there but Danish, Swedes & French are the absolute top paypal cucks.

Account is unbanned by the way. Now waiting till my funds actually reach my bank account and after this all the items will be unhidden from the shop & Streicher available for direct purchase again.

CannibalRitual

PayPal is often used because of their buyer protection. It's rather difficult to undo a bank transfer when you're getting ripped off or whatever. The other way around for sellers PayPal would be more difficult when sending without tracking and therefore can't proof when the buyer said he didn't get it etc.

vomitgore

Quote from: CannibalRitual on February 07, 2020, 05:34:33 PM
PayPal is often used because of their buyer protection. It's rather difficult to undo a bank transfer when you're getting ripped off or whatever. The other way around for sellers PayPal would be more difficult when sending without tracking and therefore can't proof when the buyer said he didn't get it etc.

Agreed! Safety is definitely the key word and it makes sense. More than the speed.

As for freedom of speech and art on PayPal, it does not exist. They draconically ban anyone who breaks the rules and they are pretty loose. Sometimes the "wrong" people get banned, even if the stuff they sell is just standard BM, for example. I would definitely recommend all PP sellers to find ways of not listing artists in payments or too openly in shops or look for an alternative. The days of Underground being "under the radar" seem to be over, same seems to apply to Industrial getting away with "bad" imagery and content because of provocation .

CosmicWeaponOfThule

Paypal purchased an AI company 3 months before this started happening to a bunch of black metal distros (part of that however was a campaign reporting people) and many of the common shopping carts that are incorporated with paypal just simply ban stuff based on keywords. If your invoicing system relays the actual product names through paypal you are done.

They mail you a check after 180 days and it is a lifetime ban based off either your credit card or your social security number.

Paypal is no longer appropriate for this these types of music, sooner customers understand that the better.
THOUSAND YEARS EMPIRE

deutscheasphalt

The initial problematic transaction according to paypal was one order of 1x Streicher "Hammerskins"
If that triggered the ban it seems rather random to me since there were orders both shortly before (of Streicher "Hammerskins" & "Annihilism") and long time before said transaction (of plenty items they flagged in hindsight; G.O. & M.O. LPs, Streicher CDs).
The transaction itself was not cancelled for some reason so in this particular case there was no repercussion for the buyer. But as you mentioned, not yet...

From trading WW2 memorabilia I know that at least in Germany advertising (or in other words putting up for sale) certain items with illegal symbols or wording is forbidden and marketplaces will ban sellers who do not censor appropriately. The buyer is out of the equation in this case. Perhaps paypal is following a similar route - target the seller, so the buyer doesn't even have the option of purchasing.

CannibalRitual

Quote from: theotherjohn on February 08, 2020, 08:39:09 PM
In relation to WWII memorabilia and other contraband goods, eBay has blocked keywords/listings for years and given that PayPal is practically one and the same, it's not a complete mystery that PayPal are taking similar protocols elsewhere where eBay is out of the picture.

Not correct. Ebay and Paypal split up and divided into separate companies long time ago. In the meantime Paypal is even getting removed from ebay as "preferred" payment option and replaced with another service.

Speaking on topic, in my shop there's two items which include the word "holocaust". Even if not really related maybe should just abbreviate the titles, don't really want to get my PayPal account banned for some stupid AI chickenshit.

deutscheasphalt

Quote from: theotherjohn on February 10, 2020, 06:49:48 PMHas anyone here legitimately tried or encouraged the use of cryptocurrency as a form of payment, outside of novelty/recreational reasons? Not being a techie, it's still like the wild west to me. I first recall seeing Bitcoin mentioned on a shared news article on this forum around 2011/12, back when they were still a few dollars each - man, hindsight is a bitch. Seems like it would be more aesthetically suited to digital music/data rather than tangible goods though. Probably deserves a new topic?
Maybe there's a thread for this, otherwise might be a good idea for a new topic. Man I wish I knew how this shit works. I was going to set it up at one point and some instructions were like to get a second laptop to run a small security server for the key or something and I quickly lost interest cause it seemed like a hassle. Don't really care about the aesthetics thing, especially since the only form of payment that would match physical format is cash letter and I think I've only had around three buyers ever pay like that since I started the distro.

Cementimental

Bitcoin is perfect for most noise labels in that nobody will ever use it to buy anything :D

Don't think there's any 'good' alternative yet, just billions of altcoins all heavily tied in value to bitcoin and even more sketchy and risky a gamble than Bitcoin

impulse manslaughter

Sending out a few dollar bills wrapped in tin foil without big brother watching. We might need to return to this.