WHITE CENTIPEDE NOISE PODCAST

Started by WCN, October 18, 2021, 11:45:20 PM

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FreakAnimalFinland

At some point, should really look into patreon system what its all about, since would have been really interested in Luke's thoughts about distributing questionable noise in the store! I guess even talking about it in open youtube feels a bit risky, haha.


Good episode and also nice to see forums talked in such a positive way. Like Oskar says, there seems to be kind of attitude that looks down on forums. I suppose some artists or people like the detachment that social media offers? Feeling as if they are not really part of anything. Not "scene" or "that kind of people" (referring to any type they feel they have nothing to do with). Just drop picture into their "own" social media account and that's that. They have their own followers there and actively taking part in forum discussion is quite another thing.

I do get it, most of them time. I would say every forum has some kind of "reputation". Whatever genre of music, or culture it is. That reputation barely does justice for most of forums. It would merely require little resilience to live with some sorts of nuisance. Couple knuckleheads bickering about conspiracy theory or daily politics could be something you just skip over, and continue talking about something else. Many seem to feel just seeing couple messages like that and forum is ruined. haha... Even if there would be vastly more talk about interesting things, the tiny negative experience appears to weight vastly more on the scale.

It is also possible that especially youngsters do not remember how vital forums were. If you'd hope to get people to shows 15 years ago, where you'd be telling about it? If you wanted to find out discography of some obscure power electronics project, there was no discogs out there, but group of collector nerds collecting information on forums. Days of "lets try to list all Con-Dom releases" and you'd be finding out there exists titled you never heard of. This type of activity is still very much possible. How would you use instagram, twitter, facebook or whatever, to build something like "THE BEST OF G.R.O.S.S.", "Lust Vessel overview", "Endorphine Factory appreciation", and so on.. Still now, any day, I would certainly like to read topic of complete album discography reviewed by actual noise listeners. See what I should be checking out, or what album I should pull out from shelves after many many years of not listening it.

That, opposed to bombarded with spam consisting mostly new bandcamp links.

Luke talks about how physical records have completely changed their nature, compared to past. They are bought, used and collected with very different motivation than in past. Even if it applies more in mainstream music, I would say it also applies to noise to some level. When seeing how this approach for music and physical media has changed, I also think it applies to use of forums. One can easily admit forums are not NEEDED in same was as they were for example 20 years ago. There are lots of easy alternatives to use instead. However, like physical noise media has benefits that "spotify" can't replicate, forums may not be the same as before, but they have some qualities what make them good. Like examples above. Despite slowness, despite little bit more clumsy interface, forums may be crucial and importance may not be fully seen unless we see how things are without them.

Can't expect masses of spotify users to return from easy streaming back to waiting tape to show up. Domination of addictive, instantly rewarding and visual heavy social media is the same. Masses of people probably won't return to old style forums, but there must be still thousands of people reading even SI! Registered active users loggin in on weekly or monthly basis is several hundreds. Amount of lurkers is vastly bigger.


Thing what Oskar talks about documenting the touring noise, would be excellent. I have mentioned this to others, like Noisextra crew too. Conelly certainly has ton of experience of endless tours. As they have framed podcast to be mostly 90's and older, I guess that type of noise touring is the early 2000's thing. I remember first hearing about guys playing several weeks, even month(s) non stop noise tour, basement show after basement show, and thinking what the hell! Over here, at the time, noise show would be anomaly. Like once a year, special gathering. Idea of noise tour of that length, on such settings, seemed unreal. I think that phenomena is still largely undocumented? At least I don't think I have ever read extensive stories about it. I recall talking about it with american harsh noise artists who said "well.. driving 5 hours and then playing in someones livingroom for 4 stoned guys ain't that interesting". haha... I would say as a phenomena, it is worth to look into how one could create "memoirs of the noise travellers" episode for podcast. I'd listen that! Or read, if it was on paper.
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MT

Derailing a topic a bit... I think youngsters are used to their own social bubbles, so they are almost oblivious to content that isn't by their guidelines and taste. Good old thick skin is a rare breed, but as an old school internet dweller, it's impenetrable by now. That's why people maybe shun away from forums? Getting exposed to uncomfortable ideas, at the cost of greater good is always good.

And for touring memoirs podcasts/zines, I would love that. Just to even hear stories from single gigs too, there's tons of great folklore that should be shared. There's never too little of anecdotes, overall bizarreness and impossible situations when it comes to playing, half of promised amplification etc.

WCN

#452
I'm not as "active" on the forums (this and Scream & Writhe) as I'd like to be, but I sure do appreciate everyone who is and I lurk on them constantly. I often see things we talked about on the podcast discussed here and wish to put my two-cents in. I actually recorded a Noise On The Run episode I intended to publish  where I respond to some of the things brought up in this thread, but I think it was a bit too rambling so I'll find a better way to do that at some point. F.A.F. - I do encourage you to check out the stuff on the patreon because it's often stuff that's not for everyone, but I'll send you the link to this week's EXT. episode, because F.A. came up specifically.
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PTM Jim

A few years back, I almost did a recollection essay on the first proper tour I went on as PTM with Skin Graft, Koufar and Winters In Osaka. It was short, only 5 shows, but every night was kind of ridiculous. Breaking shit, wondering around Philly with Robert and Arthur of Endless Humiliation, Staying at the Red Light District house for 2 days because our Connecticut show got cancelled, people taking speed at 3am while chain smoking multiple packs of cigarettes, etc. The shows themselves were good, but it's the other stuff that really can make a tour a true experience.

andy vomit

Quote from: PTM Jim on March 09, 2023, 05:27:05 PM
A few years back, I almost did a recollection essay on the first proper tour I went on as PTM with Skin Graft, Koufar and Winters In Osaka. It was short, only 5 shows, but every night was kind of ridiculous. Breaking shit, wondering around Philly with Robert and Arthur of Endless Humiliation, Staying at the Red Light District house for 2 days because our Connecticut show got cancelled, people taking speed at 3am while chain smoking multiple packs of cigarettes, etc. The shows themselves were good, but it's the other stuff that really can make a tour a true experience.

was that the tour where PTM played something like 8 minutes across all 5 shows?
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FreakAnimalFinland

Quote from: andy vomit on March 09, 2023, 05:49:27 PM
was that the tour where PTM played something like 8 minutes across all 5 shows?

HAHA!
that is another thing, that back in the day, I had never seen "short noise show". I always thought it would be like what real bands play. Hearing live album of noise band, seeing Heavy Electronics fest, hearing Con-Dom live shows, CCCC live albums and so on. Some anomalies, like Masonna. Just about everybody else seemed to play "full length" gigs. It would be curious to know when and where the short couple minute noise live shows became usual routine? Even that dominating, that idea of noise show being kind of "show of industrial tradition", 30-45 mins with video backdrop and whatever, would become anomaly.

I would assume that era, when bands mostly releases C-60 tapes and era when suddenly just about everybody is doing C-10 and C-20 may correlate a bit with gig lengths too?

Quote from: WCN on March 09, 2023, 02:57:42 PM
F.A.F. - I do encourage you to check out the stuff on the patreon because it's often stuff that's not for everyone, but I'll send you the link to this week's EXT. episode, because F.A. came up specifically.

Seeing this piece, it comes out in... lets say positive light!
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Zeno Marx

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on March 09, 2023, 09:35:59 AM
I do get it, most of them time. I would say every forum has some kind of "reputation". Whatever genre of music, or culture it is. That reputation barely does justice for most of forums. It would merely require little resilience to live with some sorts of nuisance. Couple knuckleheads bickering about conspiracy theory or daily politics could be something you just skip over, and continue talking about something else. Many seem to feel just seeing couple messages like that and forum is ruined. haha... Even if there would be vastly more talk about interesting things, the tiny negative experience appears to weight vastly more on the scale.
Quote from: MT on March 09, 2023, 09:59:09 AM
I think youngsters are used to their own social bubbles, so they are almost oblivious to content that isn't by their guidelines and taste. Good old thick skin is a rare breed, but as an old school internet dweller, it's impenetrable by now. That's why people maybe shun away from forums? Getting exposed to uncomfortable ideas
sure seems to be the case.  even when a forum has the block feature enabled so they don't have to see the users they don't like, they get bothered by it.  a couple of posts per day have the power to jade it all.  It's weird.  Does huddling in said social bubbles ultimately make someone that sensitive and that easily affected?  Immunity lost?
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PTM Jim

#457
Quote from: andy vomit on March 09, 2023, 05:49:27 PM

was that the tour where PTM played something like 8 minutes across all 5 shows?

Ha. It might have been more like 12 minutes for all 5, but yeah. I have it all recorded except for one of the sets and they clock in at 9 minutes. Back in the days of just breaking everything, then attacking the audience, end.
This is what I mean by saying I don't make noise anymore. Pure uncalculated destruction.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on March 09, 2023, 06:18:53 PM

HAHA!
that is another thing, that back in the day, I had never seen "short noise show". I always thought it would be like what real bands play. Hearing live album of noise band, seeing Heavy Electronics fest, hearing Con-Dom live shows, CCCC live albums and so on. Some anomalies, like Masonna. Just about everybody else seemed to play "full length" gigs. It would be curious to know when and where the short couple minute noise live shows became usual routine? Even that dominating, that idea of noise show being kind of "show of industrial tradition", 30-45 mins with video backdrop and whatever, would become anomaly.

I would assume that era, when bands mostly releases C-60 tapes and era when suddenly just about everybody is doing C-10 and C-20 may correlate a bit with gig lengths too?

I feel like super short sets are still pretty rare. I would say most are around the 10 minute mark, with touring acts playing a little longer, and 90s guys will do the very long ones because I think that is what they have always been used to. It also depends on WHAT you are playing. I can't imagine Skin Crime playing a 5 minute set, while I also can't imagine Ahlz playing more then 10 minutes.

I definitely think the tape length era of going from C40-60s to the stunted C10-20 has a lot to do with that. I never really put two and two together, but there must be some correlation.

Leewar

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on March 09, 2023, 09:35:59 AMLike Oskar says, there seems to be kind of attitude that looks down on forums. I suppose some artists or people like the detachment that social media offers? Feeling as if they are not really part of anything. Not "scene" or "that kind of people" (referring to any type they feel they have nothing to do with). Just drop picture into their "own" social media account and that's that. They have their own followers there and actively taking part in forum discussion is quite another thing.

I often wondered why some of the bigger names in the noise/PE/industrial scene dont communicate with people via forums, or they do early on in their career, but once a certain level of recognition is reached they just revert to posting releases via social media.

Is it regarded as a faux pas to still lurk amongst the peasant's?

HateSermon

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on March 09, 2023, 06:18:53 PM
HAHA!
that is another thing, that back in the day, I had never seen "short noise show". I always thought it would be like what real bands play. Hearing live album of noise band, seeing Heavy Electronics fest, hearing Con-Dom live shows, CCCC live albums and so on. Some anomalies, like Masonna. Just about everybody else seemed to play "full length" gigs. It would be curious to know when and where the short couple minute noise live shows became usual routine? Even that dominating, that idea of noise show being kind of "show of industrial tradition", 30-45 mins with video backdrop and whatever, would become anomaly.

I would assume that era, when bands mostly releases C-60 tapes and era when suddenly just about everybody is doing C-10 and C-20 may correlate a bit with gig lengths too?

That's an interesting point and something I've never really thought of either. Around here, I think its an unspoken rule that you don't exceed 15 or 20 minute live performance... you could, but it doesn't really happen that often. There are a few reasons for this. It's almost exclusively basement shows. I've never seen any noise on stage in a proper venue in my city. So then there's the social aspect of hanging out and slamming beers with friends who probably also have short attention spans. Also most projects here are full blown harsh noise assault which feeds into the quick and dirty mindset. Long, brooding PE/Industrial sets just don't really happen here as much as I'd like. Even my own performances are tailored to be a bit shorter simply due to the environment. No complaints just telling it like it is. I'm just glad shit is happening.

Strangecross

#460
I would be much more open to longer sets if shows started much earlier. i'd be up for even morning and afternoon. Things need to be pretty raging to watch a 45+ min set around midnight.

Which can also tie in to talking about tours. it is kind of a bummer to be so pushed for time when by the time the gig ends, you are pretty much looking at getting to the next town.

WCN

Quote from: Leewar on March 09, 2023, 07:23:32 PM

I often wondered why some of the bigger names in the noise/PE/industrial scene dont communicate with people via forums, or they do early on in their career, but once a certain level of recognition is reached they just revert to posting releases via social media.

Is it regarded as a faux pas to still lurk amongst the peasant's?

This is  also an important step for a lot of artists wanting to be bigger names. They're still lurking, just from hidden accounts. Hi guys!
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FreakAnimalFinland

Quote from: Leewar on March 09, 2023, 07:23:32 PM
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on March 09, 2023, 09:35:59 AMLike Oskar says, there seems to be kind of attitude that looks down on forums. I suppose some artists or people like the detachment that social media offers? Feeling as if they are not really part of anything. Not "scene" or "that kind of people" (referring to any type they feel they have nothing to do with). Just drop picture into their "own" social media account and that's that. They have their own followers there and actively taking part in forum discussion is quite another thing.

I often wondered why some of the bigger names in the noise/PE/industrial scene dont communicate with people via forums, or they do early on in their career, but once a certain level of recognition is reached they just revert to posting releases via social media.

Is it regarded as a faux pas to still lurk amongst the peasant's?

Little bit of derailing WCN topic here, but in case live gig talk or forum talk continues, I'll split into various topics.

I think amount of "bigger names" is so small, and the "genre" operates in very specific time that we can't really estimate reasons why person would not use forums. It may be tempting to assume this suggestion mentioned above has some role, but it might be just that back in the day, when artists was lesser known, forums were all we had.  Even bigger labels and artists may have posted on forum as that was how internet worked for many people. Getting word out there by means that are available. Perhaps discuss a little with others.

Fast forwards 15-20 years, and artists who may have become "big" meanwhile, also live in entirely different world where using forum may not be something he actively even thinks of. Its probably not thinking is it cool or is it faux pas. I guess research shows that about 95% of internet browsing happens these days with phone. One can be sure that anything that is not "app", is not first thing what comes to mind. You got friends at message app, you got bunch of public social media, you got bandcamp, youtube and whatever apps to load your stuff into and send notifications of new stuff.  

Forums are now way more like magazine. For people who make conscious decision to participate (buying magazine, joining forum). Due knowing this particular format of communication is better than something else. Or if not better, just different, and it has its benefits.

Like thinking, what's role of noise zine printed 30 copies? Why big names of noise are not in minizines? Or putting them out? This recent Finnish publication, Noise Space 'zine, I got like 6 guys in Finland who talked to me about it, liking reading it. How can zine of 30 copies have such impact, while facebook post seen by 30 guys would probably be obsolete? It is different thing, different impact and for different purpose.

But like Oskar comments above, lots of guys are lurkers. See something like NOISE NOW PLAYING group in facebook. Is it couple thousand members, and how many are active in posting? Quite small %. Many have mentioned to me that writing in english is obstacle. Plus some are not really "writers". They are 100% into noise and want to follow news and recommendations, but just don't feel like posting on public. That's why SI is open forum. It doesn't have hidden sections and you do not need to logged in to read it. Lurkers welcomed!
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Skuggsidan

#463
I agree that one of the recent episodes where Luke Tandy from Skeleton Dust was interviewed is a pleasant listening. By the way, Heat signature is a band project that I have recently become very fond of.

Regarding the discussion about forums, I can see from my own analysis and empirical experience that there seem to be different audiences that have different approaches to the different platforms. It is very much a matter of cultural differences, and I notice that some of the 'older generation' are only on certain other social platforms (FB) - while the even younger generation is on Instagram.
From my own experience, I think Instagram and the like are the worst platforms because people are always writing around the clock, and have thus obtained help from individuals who work there to answer people's comments. I appreciate people's inquisitiveness, but as a working person, it can be difficult to find the time to answer 24 hours รก day.

However, I think it's important for labels to have a long-term view of their work, namely preservation for eternity. Therefore, I have started working on a book where I interview some artists I have collaborations with. I think it is good that there are fanzines, but however, books in hardcover are needed for a more long-term thinking.

One can probably also make distinctions between the audience that focused is on purely collecting and the few who are actually interested in doing long tours, and perhaps a hybrid of the two making up even a smaller percentage. It is worth keeping in mind that the older you get - the more responsibilities to possible external factors such as work and family. Thus, you don't have too much time to spend on the road or online to be social, but spend all your time sending orders and creating new releases/plankton fishing instead.

I myself had an idea of creating a forum that is only for individuals who have paid a certain amount of money to not make it as public. However, we now have started working on a forum that will be public, and this is not to compete with anyone else - but rather as a complement. Think both this forum and Scream & Writhe are good forums, but the more niches platforms there are out there - the better. This does not preclude stopping using another forum, but it is more about being able to capture different individuals from different cultural zones/tastes.
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Phenol

[Grumpy middle aged man mode: on] I'm personally hardly on any social media anymore. I vastly prefer the forum format since it, at least every now and then, provides actual information and leads to some real discussion instead of selfabsorbed and navelgazing "look at me"-posts that get a few (or many, who cares...?) likes and heart-emojis. Internet forums and hearsay from people in the scene as well as a few physical magazines on occasion and some blogs and news letters from labels and distros are my main sources for news and new acts to check out. Maybe it's a generational thing, but social media to me is just an endless streams of, well, nothing. Utterly pointless.