"economy" of noise - tapes

[FreakAnimalFinland]

I didn't find the old topic of "noise economy". Maybe it was in old noisefanatics forum...

Recently been thinking this development with noise tapes, where will be the final price level what will be simply unbearable?

Some friends commented when they got recently some discogs orders and realized that since last time they sold stuff, now shipping single item is like 2-3 times as high.

Recently had some japanese tapes, that had to be priced 17-19 euro each, but that's kind of ridiculous. Even if these prices were intentionally lowest I could see anyone to offer. Wholesale was 10 euro + postage from japan. Even with those prices, I barely break even after selling everything. Profit margin was calculated to be like.. 1 euro?

Or labels seeking distribution who do not trade, and have to ask roughly 5-6 euro wholesale + shipping for their tapes for reason or another.

Key problems are obviously never ending increase of shipping rates. And in case of official label, all sorts of taxes and such. I have tried to settle for generic price of 7 euro, which already for more "d.i.y. background" people may appear fairly rough. To be able to sell for 7 euro, means, without immediate VAT(value added tax, Finland, 24%.) price is 5,65 euro. If I'd hope to keep at least 65 cents as "profit", for all the work, means I should get tape for 5 euro ppd, with no hidden surcharges.

Unfortunately, many times my postage charges are not full charge, but some flat rate. Meaning, someone orders tape, pays 4 euro shipping, and I actually pay 5,75 to ship. This means I lose on every order where profit margin would be merely 1 euro. Even 2 tapes. Or 3 still sold at loss. When order is bigger, then there is no problem, but smaller orders are basically mostly loss. Not big loss, but some anyways. Generally not route what leads for distribution to run smoothly, hah... 

Problems nowadays are that due shipping, it can be impossible to get any tapes for 5 euro ppd. While there would be audience for tapes, manufacturing fairly cheap, but all in all, only means of of distributions nowadays for most labels is simply to sell directly to customers.

Think of situation where manufacturing 100 "pro"tapes is perhaps 250. Freebies given to artists adds shipping costs. Perhaps eventually you got costs worth of 300, 75 tapes to sell. It's 4 euro each. Just the cost. Asking 5 + shipping from distributor. Shipping may add 1-2 euro per tape even. Depending where you live and where you send. Distributor gets tape for 7 euro, adds his 1 euro cut, adds tax (here in finland 24%) and retail is 10 euro + shipping.  Customer orders just this one tape, pays perhaps 5 euro shipping..  15 euro later you got 20 mins of noise in your tape deck? For official labels, there's barely any way to find cheaper solutions. So basically one can bluntly conclude to most deal offers that I appreciate offer, but scenario ain't going to work out unless you got name tag on tape what people will pay literally anything.

It's not complaint. Simply observation of situation and questioning how this would be good for format what used to be identified as the best means of checking out something new. How many would check out random 15 euro tape? hah... Turning into expensive novelty item isn't so desired change from my perspective.

Situation may be different on "hobby" level. Not tax obligated labels. Operations in country where shipping isn't unbearable. In form of networking, where trading may be primary method.


What is the pain limit for tape prices?
Does reality of current costs or lack of distribution possibilities etc keep you away from making own (physical) releases?
Even if in theory one could conclude it's simply a choice, either buy or don't, what does it tell about underground culture if attitude is like form of yuppie culture. etc?
..
.

[Duality]

It certainly is a worry to me that tape may get to expensive to manufacture, as its probably my favourite format. I can only speak from the side of a consumer rather than a label but nonetheless.
Shipping to Australia can be especially expensive so I generally only get tape if A. its a name I can expect quality from or B. I've heard a sample before hand and can be sure its worth the expense. There probably will come a time where tape becomes simply to expensive to order in all cases, when they reach say, 12 euro, before shipping, but for now, I'm still willing to put down the money for quality.

[F_c_O]

Personally, there isn't 'pain limit' as such because theres some level of fetishiation (is that even a word? Well, it is now!) with the format where the partial reason to buy the tape is the fact that its a tape, not only about the music. Where the look, layout and other things matter too. If it were 'only' about the music for me, id be buying things digitally rather than wasting money and time and space on any form of physical release, heh.

I haven't personally ran a label ever but I've always felt that the profit margins with any form of noise release can't be that high? But on customer side, it really sucks to find some release youve been looking for a long time for relatively cheap but its in place like USA or Japan or wherever and when you make the order, the shipping costs hit you with way bigger bill than expected. Its always a surprise, or then I am really bad at this or people just keep tabs on postage rates from different countries. Either way, things have turned to the point where domestic is always the first choice, even if the products themselve cost slightly more.

Aside from that, I simply love how here in finland there has been news on how government wants us to have new online shops and such yet the postage costs are astronomical, forcing you to either be extremely niche (probably with extremely low profit margins) to even think of surviving. Combine that with the fact that post doesnt really come in time (with the capital area being the worst, for some reason), its hard to have any edge in competing with someone from place like germany where the price of items might be slightly higher but the shipping costs are lot lower and DHL actually gets shit done.

To me, its not even about noise tapes or limited to world of any music, Finland just sucks if you want to run any kind of online shop and honestly, I can't see how things would change much in future. They probably simply make cuts to the national postal service, then do some layoffs, then hike the price of postage even higher, which seem to be the method our government has chosen to deal with everything.

[Ashmonger]

I think the discussion counts for other formats as well, that shipping is really getting a pain in the ass. If I want to ship 1 LP to anywhere in Europe with Bpost it costs €14 (if it's to countries where I can't use Mondial Rely or Kiala). This is a price for packages up to 1 kg, so you can get a bunch of stuff for that price. Some people then add other stuff in orders, which is nice, some people just pay the €14 shipping for 1 LP and some people cancel their order (understandable but it sucks).
For tapes it costs €4 for one tape, €8 for 2 (up to 4 or 5). And indeed when doing wholesale orders from US labels it's getting quite difficult, running a small (non-registered) distro, I want to keep my prices reasonable, but with those shipping costs even when adding only 50 cents or so, you're going already to €7, which I personally think is still ok for a tape, but it doesn't have to be more than that either. Some labels are generous enough to add some free stuff to make up for the shipping cost, which is appreciated, but of course it's money out of their pockets.
With the Chaos Cascade tape, the amount of money I spent on it, was quite ok, so I could make a bit of money from selling copies directly, but when trading and thus adding shipping costs, that gets diminished. Of course I don't have to make money with this, but I don't want to loose too much money on it either and I feel it's getting more difficult to move stuff in general.

Regarding the above posters last sentence: I've got the feeling that government (in Belgium as well) is dealing with several traditional government companies like this, because they want to get rid of them and want to make space for the free market, but are afraid that just getting rid of them will get too much resistance. (Or is this bordering on conspiracy theory?)

[Bleak Existence]

shipping will cause the death of physical format buying unless you are very rich sad

[F_c_O]

Regarding the above posters last sentence: I've got the feeling that government (in Belgium as well) is dealing with several traditional government companies like this, because they want to get rid of them and want to make space for the free market, but are afraid that just getting rid of them will get too much resistance. (Or is this bordering on conspiracy theory?)

Yes, that is part of it, at least here. The door for competition was opened few years back and after that the national postal service gone to shit. Think that people need to start looking into UPS, DHL and other private courier services. Saddly, some of the parts of their bussiness in Finland are really lacking, for example, UPS don't have any form of locker service or there are really few package centers. I for one hate when packages are brought to door because that means I have to be focusing on that from 8 - 16, just waiting to get the package instead of being able to choose to fetch it from the center on my own time and volition.

[bitewerksMTB]

In the US, the rate to ship one tape or one cd is $13.50; I think you can probably send 3 items for that amount or not much more. The USPS really stuck it in hard and deep on lightweight packages.

I know some mailorder outfits in the U.S. are using DHL to ship LP packages but I haven't checked their rates yet.

[Zodiac]

Well, i just did reach #2 relesse and i run non official shoebox label which i do out of passion and not to earn any money.
I am in Germany and it is true, shipping costs from Germany into the whole world are rather modest (if not cheap in comparsion
to the US for example). Anyway. I really like it when people order directly from me but most of the copies go to "bigger" distribution
partners - simple solution since i dont run a distro myself and then chance (and the comfort) for people is way higher if they can
pick my tapes and other stuffs from the same source. I do standart price 7 eu for direct order. Sometimes i have to invest
like 3-4 euro into shipping but since i do mostly small runs (factory made tapes!) i dont get too deep in the red. Just my 2 cents.

[Zeno Marx]

As an aside, a few years ago, if not maybe ten years now, online shops were in a frenzy in the USA because there was talk of sales tax being applied on all sales, not only for sales within the same state.  The States saw that as missed revenue.  B&M shops thought it an unfair advantage to online shopping.  Point being:  I don't think anyone thought shipping was going to be the downfall of mail commerce.  I think Amazon was the first to really take notice of it, which I'm relatively certain was at the core of the impetus to create a drone fleet.  As I've said many times, I'm fine with physical product going the way of the Dodo, but I didn't foresee shipping to be such a key factor in its demise.

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

First of all, I don't see why people who are responsible for making or releasing music which is connected to anti-cultural, against mainstream culture, society, music/art, still are thinking about money, profits, covering costs, and reducing outgoings? Who is thinking about its passion but through the prism of financial gains? Anybody is buying favourite records with thinking how it will be sold in the future?

[VelvetCurtain]

Also, the effect that social media has had on how tapes are sold - which is very much a factor in the "economy of noise tapes" - is also crushingly apparent for reasons that are both good and bad.

[bitewerksMTB]

First of all, I don't see why people who are responsible for making or releasing music which is connected to anti-cultural, against mainstream culture, society, music/art, still are thinking about money, profits, covering costs, and reducing outgoings? Who is thinking about its passion but through the prism of financial gains? Anybody is buying favourite records with thinking how it will be sold in the future?

It looks like you release nice cds. I'll pm you my address and you can send me EVERYTHING because I'm super passionate about them but I have no interest in giving you money or you covering your costs.

[collapsedhole]

First of all, I don't see why people who are responsible for making or releasing music which is connected to anti-cultural, against mainstream culture, society, music/art, still are thinking about money, profits, covering costs, and reducing outgoings? Who is thinking about its passion but through the prism of financial gains? Anybody is buying favourite records with thinking how it will be sold in the future?

i think the point is this - no one is doing this to get rich, but it is nice to not lose money every time you put out a tape. personally, i get pissed whenever i lose money - if i pay a hooker for a blowjob i may have a great time fucking her mouth, but i'm still not happy about paying for it. losing money when putting out a tape is like getting the blow job but not cumming... its still fun but just not as much, ya know?

in the USA, shipping one tape domestically is at least $2.50. can't use the media mail trick anymore as the media mail packages are now even more expensive. add 0.50 for the paypal fee... down $3 before you even factor in production costs, which are usually at least another $3-4... and god forbid anyone actually value their time... so that is why $8 tapes are now the norm... more and more i am starting to see $10+ tapes.... when the cost gets that high its gotta be something i really want, otherwise i will be more likely to buy a 20 year old classic for the same amount.

i used to get a ton of overseas orders, but with one tape costing $13+ to ship outside of the USA, that has gotten rid of 90% of the international customers. i personally can only very rarely afford to trade overseas.

i used to sell out 90 tapes in a week when i charged $7 per tape... now, for instance, i released a tape buy a SKIN CRIME side project back in february, limited to 67, and still have half of them sitting here... only factor i can imagine dissuading people is the price = $8 within the USA.

[Zeno Marx]

There's a difference between covering costs, or possibly even eating $.50-1.00 on an order, vs working in the idea of profit to the price.  There's a context to that, too.  I wouldn't consider it a problem eating $.50-1.00 on a tape limited to 75 copies, but if it was a record or CD of 500-2000 copies, then that's another level of loss.  I'm not saying I would be excited to lose any amount of money, but if I want to be involved, that's an inconsequential cost.  As for valuing your time, that's funny and a rabbit hole.  I remember working on my label anywhere from 4-5 hours/night and maybe 8 hours a day on the weekends if a release was nearing the end.  If I had placed a value on my time, I would have never done it (and had been charging $25 for records in the 90s).  Personally, I think it's not only unrealistic, but also lame, goofy, and a few other things.  Not pointing fingers.  That's how any talk of wage in relation to a small label strikes me.  My reward is in being involved, developing relationships, education...the self-fulfillment types of reward.  Not that anyone here doesn't know that, but yeah...time and wages...fuck that.  Don't talk to me about it, because I feel it makes you sound like a delusional asshole.  And if you're trying to pay rent and feed your kids off this, this is obviously a different situation, and I can't relate.

I haven't picked up a tape or 7" in a long time.  At $7+, there might be a handful of artists I'd cough up that kind of dough to have, but I also grew up when an LP was $8ppd.  To my mind, an $8 C-20 is comedy.

[Theodore]

6-7 euros is OK price for a tape, i think. It's the final shipping cost to consumer that sucks, for a single tape and even worse for a single vinyl. Ordering 3-4 items from the same seller is more "comfortable" for me. But really, i am looking my pack of cigarettes - it costs 3.5 euros daily. Should i worry more about it or for the 6-7 euros shipping cost usually 4 tapes have ? [Same continent. Intercontinental shipping costs too expensive, indeed.]