logic of micro release within noise?

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

With CDR, tape, etc. basically only limitation is state of mind.

The limited edition cdr is something I'll never understand.

Yes, such info like how many copies are available isn't necessary and everybody can ignore it. This is only stupid, one of the market tricks which was adopted in underground scene many years ago. What is problem? This is such problem as still the stupid shock images from covers of industrial-noise records, still the same sounds used from synths, multi-effects and so on... There aren't more seriously problems in music to discuss?

[kettu]

isnt being a profilic artist or label a big thing in noise? Im not going to make a piechart of how much the output has increased per label/artist but I did check out what people were up to in the olden times. macronympha, acording to discogs put out 10ish things in 95. those old things make up a strong legacy to live up to so I dont think its all the newbs fault.

oho, I was cleaning at the same time and forgot to write more. if ^that is true well how does a  band become profilic? take up every offer and or aproach everyother shoeboxlabel. Im sure there are plenty of people who want to be a part of the game(this being the label) and since limited item is so identified with noise why not do those. and quickly this starts to feed it self.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

What is problem? This is such problem as still the stupid shock images from covers of industrial-noise records, still the same sounds used from synths, multi-effects and so on... There aren't more seriously problems in music to discuss?

I think problem was explained, wasn't it?
I don't know is it serious problem or not, since all the problems of noise scene disappears when you stop following it? Problems of noise scene hardly haunt the daily life of person.

All these issues are among details open for criticism. All the details together contribute what becomes a noise. And if noise is all about sale gimmicks, all about sounds as excuse of packaging, all about creation to be part of small circle, all about stolen ideas and scene adjustments, eventually you start to wonder if this approach should be criticized, and return should be made to very basic values? One could criticize the worship of old relics, who now fart out sub-par releases. Labels that rip you off. Labels that cheat you by selling you things based on false advertising. Bands and artists who operate without passion and love to the noise. None of these really problems of "real life", so to say, but nuisance within noise, if you ask me.

I someone thinks, he likes european p.e. He'd have whole history of genre, available as regular tapes, that were dubbed by various labels. Releases from 300 to more by all the key bands. Old stuff may be sold out, but still available pretty easily.
Now, If someone thinks, I should check out USA p.e. of modern times, since its been such a matter of discussion.. Vomit Arsonist CD was decent. So how was the other recent stuff? Well, who knows since it was ltd 25 each. American Boots.. 50 copies? I probably sold 30% of pressing from my distro. Where to get it now? Nowhere. Where to get live tape? I guess nowhere. FFH, probably remaining intentionally obscure. Tapes limited from 36 to 50 to 88. One actually 200. And the 7". Prurient collab was great, yet only 36 special editions exists. Luckily I do have it, but every time someone mentions FFH, I say this is the one to get, but I know it's like elitist middle finger of "haha, I have it, you don't.. and won't!". Climax Denial.. most of back catalogue ltd 50. And latest CD is available, but unfortunately as wholeness, not as good as tapes, I think?  Sharpwaist, pretty much every release is 50-60 copies? Maybe Nil By Mouth did bigger run? And in deed, it was a good tape I'd recommend to those who want to check "new US pe"! Disgust, the band I see is being worshipped by some people as great new force bending the line between pe &.. ehm.. "grind"? Perhaps close to old Bloodyminded? I don't know. Ltd 65 copies of tape was sold out before I noticed it. Nyodene D did pretty nice tape on Obscurex. Available and easy to get. Meanwhile there was 45 copies tape sold out, and new c-60 that came out is 25 copies. Hmm 25? Well, seems like CDR version also on its way. Yellow Tears, after great LP's, seems like releases got gradually smaller. And 12" that came after LP was such an amazing release, one wonders how come follows with 5-10 times smaller releases one probably can't find out or buy? Shallow Waters tape probably not too well available, but Hospital saved situation with LP release.  RRRecords saved Halflings and Cathode Terror Secretion from this by doing LP's of them. I could go on as long until my coffee is finished, heh, but I guess someone could see a point? There doesn't seem to be much reason to limit most of the tapes or cdr mentioned above. But as result they are, unless someone is willing to join the mp3 revolution (not me), you simply slept over the wave of american PE, because you wasn't close friend or the most avid follower of all the myspace sites or forum classifieds.
Did you (or me) miss something vital? I guess that is up to debate. But as many of these have been hailed as masters of contemporary PE, one wonders should it be heard more than 30 friends and 15 random guys?

[Ashmonger]

I'm not too familiar with the noise scene alltogether, but I think it might be possible that certain people just don't ask questions about it anymore. They just see: ok, this is the way it's done, it's normal to make limited releases, so there we go.
That, as well as the fact, that there are a lot of bands, so it's difficult to know about your own material how many people will be interested, might make for another reason for limited items. But as said, that should only count for the first couple of releases.

For a part, it might also be laizyness, people don't want to keep copying the same release for years. And if you say your items are very limited, you know they'll be sold very soon, since, as Mikko said, people will be like: I've got to buy it now or miss it. Have done that myself a couple of times, but only for releases of which I was very sure that I'd like them. Otherwise, too bad, I'll miss them. There's too much good stuff to just buy anything because it's limited.

Since I'll be doing some releases myself sooner or later and have no idea how the interest will be, it appeared to me that the best way would be to release batches. First batch of maybe 25, then see how fast they're gone and if there still is need to make another batch. That way your release stays available without having to make one copy at a time or have lots of copies still collecting dust.

On the other hand, one thing I also was amazed about: I just got the Bereft album (Your Messiah Will Fail), good stuff, but it's limited to 250 and CDr, which had me wondering: is 250 too few to let it press on CD? No idea really what the least amount is you can order with real pressed CDs.

Finally, on a side note, I had a thought about the value for money thing: it seems to be a 'problem' in Black/Death Metal as well. In my opinion a real album should last at least a half hour (I would never call anything I record an album, when it's got less than half an hour of material). But lately: Prosanctus Inferi album - 26min, Nocturnal Blood album - 25min, Black Witchery album - 22min. Why? Just write a couple more songs. Nevertheless, I bought the PI album, because it's great and will  be the NB as well, since I'm confident it's better than most of the shit released. But both the NB and BW album have about 8 tracks. And I've got the impression that nowadays it's nearly not-done to have 10 tracks or more on an album (well, the PS has 13). So, then I think: it shouldn't be about the number of tracks on your album, but about the length of the album. I mean, what's next noisecore bands releasing albums with only 10 tracks or less?!
Anyway, just to say, this seems to be more of a general problem.

[Ernpe]

Mediocre release limited to 20 is no problem. Mediocre release pressed 200 or 500 is a problem.

Well, I think it's the same thing as when you hang out too much with boring & mediocre people and end up being a boring & mediocre person yourself... Meaningless releases result in more meaninglessness.

This was my point. Mediocre release ltd. to 20 will disappear. Perhaps it'll be mentioned on Discogs but nothing more.

[Ashmonger]

This was the good thing in labels such as: Open Wound, Nihilistic Recordings, Come Organization (= live assault archives), Broken Flag, Extreme, Zero Cabal, Con-Dom, Sound of Pig, RRRecords, and so on and on. Where are their modern day equivalents?

I think Industrial Heritage (Trev Ward/Grey Wolves 'new' label) is a good example (http://stab.webeden.co.uk/). He has a  lot of the Old Wound stuff available on CDr, not limited or whatever.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

yes, but he's from the old school. With modern equivalent, I meant some new guys who approach the industrial noise from that perspective and do it for contemporary releases.

Statutory Tape. Not only it is a great name for label, but under this (sub)label has been kept available Best of G.R.O.S.S., early days K2 box, Merzbow pornoise box, Journey into pain box, Rising From The Red Sand box, etc... Material what otherwise may have disappeared into 80's/90's tape scene void. Perhaps there would be need for another archive label, who simply steals the best limited tapes of other labels and keeps them available as regular archive versions?

[Goat93]

yes, but he's from the old school. With modern equivalent, I meant some new guys who approach the industrial noise from that perspective and do it for contemporary releases.

Statutory Tape. Not only it is a great name for label, but under this (sub)label has been kept available Best of G.R.O.S.S., early days K2 box, Merzbow pornoise box, Journey into pain box, Rising From The Red Sand box, etc... Material what otherwise may have disappeared into 80's/90's tape scene void. Perhaps there would be need for another archive label, who simply steals the best limited tapes of other labels and keeps them available as regular archive versions?

It is just hard to get all the Limited new releases, so it would be great if someone bring out the old ones again :)

I think the limitation should be an argument to buy it. And an Issue to feel better since when its sold out, its not useless, equal if its 25 or 250.

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

I think problem was explained, wasn't it? I don't know is it serious problem or not, since all the problems of noise scene disappears when you stop following it? Problems of noise scene hardly haunt the daily life of person.

I see your point of view. But this agitation doesn't lead to aim. There are artists-labels-receivers, secret formula which accepts, wants and demands this ultra limited records. Is it stupid? Bad? Not fair? I don't see anything bad in this snob practises, feeling very special, want to be very special. If people want to be such like this why turn them down it? Music/art will not suffer because of this situation.

[MagiaNuda]

Going back to the original topic, I think limited releases are perfectly logical. We are creating niche market material for a niche market audience. There is usually not enough demand to warrant pressing a few hundred tapes, CDs, LPs, etc. I know too many people who pressed a few hundred or a thousand CDs or LPs and are now sitting on boxes of them that they can't sell. Unless you're someone who is a big name in the noise scene, it is completely unrealistic to assume you can routinely sell hundreds of units doing this kind of thing.

If you're touring and have a few releases which are limited to 20 or 30 copies, they will usually sell, because those interested in purchasing said release don't know when they're going to see it for sale again. You can also use limited releases as a sort of "test". Put your material out there, see if you can sell it, and use this as a basis for the quantities of future releases. If certain releases sell out or generate a lot of good reviews, re-press them. I'm not trying to sound like some business minded capitalist here... I'm far from it. However, in my mind, it just isn't worth releasing your material if there is no demand, it will not sell, and you'd be wasting your time and effort. This is why limited releases make sense. If you can't move your release, at least you pressed less than 50 copies.

I don't agree with overcharging for hyper limited releases of dubious quality. I also don't agree with putting out records just for the sake of it.

[manuel-ronf]

I've been using the concept of "limited edition" for a while but I am getting less and less keen on it lately,
from my own experience I believe it is ok to make a limited first pressing of something if you're not sure on how the acceptance is going to be but then why retiring records that you are happy with and have good feedback when you're running a label to make stuff available for enthusiasts of the genre?
I've made some pressings myself of 100 copies that have gone quite fast (e.g. Vrilnoise & Fear Konstruktor, Vomir / Mixturizer, Dead Body Collection / Vomir, Werewolf Jerusalem & Wasp Honeymoon, Vidine Ramybe) and still are demanded so I feel I must make more copies of them not for the sake of the label but for enthusiats and artists' themselves.
I think it is pissing off for an artist to put effort on recording something that's really good and then getting only 50 listeners to it.
I think there are labels/individuals who make limited stuff just to represent and building quick an enviable catalog, but what's the point of this when these labels have an endless sold out listing and only 2 or 3 available releases?

[Nil By Mouth]

Sharpwaist, pretty much every release is 50-60 copies? Maybe Nil By Mouth did bigger run?

Well I think yes, I print 100 copies and I have 3 copies left. My 'limited edition' policy depends on demand, in fact the Tied To An Abuse compilation is a limited edition of 300 copies due for the presence of big names.

[Goat93]

@Ashmonger

In Black Metal it is not really Uncommon that a CD/LP is under 30minutes.
There were also some Statements of this as "Underground" from Gorgoroth or some others back ago.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

To me, something like BW new album, in 22 minutes, was already half too much.
But I think length itself is not a problem. One could say that in fact many releases are also too long. LP = 40 minutes, just seem to be perfect. I have always tried to find out, was this conscious length decided by study of human brain & ear functions? Since we know, original CD length was conscious decision. They thought to do 60 minutes, but ended up in 74 due length of certain symphony.
I wonder did they plan 11" LP or 13" LP, did they try other rotation speeds. Of course 4 rotation speeds existed. But I guess 12" with 16rpm wasn't good enough sound?
Well... damn derailing here..

I think the problem of short release in noise is that often it seems more of consumerism at best. And same problem what affects noise 7"s affects this. One may get short "best" cut from some piece, lacking the sense of beginning or end. Merely random fragment of something. To me, it often looked as if it would be predominantly due easiness of dubbing, cheapens of blank material and easiness of finding 2x5min as opposed to 2x20min for example.
One can ask is this problem if band, label and customer are happy? Of course not. But are they? Who knows. At least I know these tend to be matter of debate all the time, when someone feels cheated by 10$ 10min piece of crap and band hardly list them among the peaks in their discography? In theory excellent format, but perhaps ruined due possibilities to be ruined.

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

when someone feels cheated by 10$ 10min piece of crap and band hardly list them among the peaks in their discography? In theory excellent format, but perhaps ruined due possibilities to be ruined.

Mikko, why cheated? Mind you, customer (especially in industrial music circle) is aware what he buys. Usually labels inform about length of cassettes. Once I bought this release: http://www.discogs.com/Various-The-Artificial-Nerve/release/2548797 for over 100 EU. I didn't feel that I was cheated.