logic of micro release within noise?

[Ashmonger]

@Ashmonger
In Black Metal it is not really Uncommon that a CD/LP is under 30minutes.
There were also some Statements of this as "Underground" from Gorgoroth or some others back ago.

Yes, indeed, Pentagram is also 29 minutes and that's a great album. In general, I'm not too bothered about it, but for me personally I'd feel uncomfortable releasing anything under half an hour and calling it an album.
On the other hand: about a half hour of great stuff is always better than an hour of shit.
Or the other extreme: the American Black Metal band Nightbringer released their first album in an LP box (5 sided). Takes altogether more than 90 minutes and it's too much. It can't keep my attention. When I listen to the LPs separately it's damn fine stuff, but more than 90mins is just too much.

Often short releases might indeed be consumerism, since that way one can release more albums. But apart from that, I also often think it's the case of having recorded something that might not really fit in with the rest of an artists stuff or deals with a particular issue, a concept release so to say. Some concepts seem perfectly fine to deal with in two or three tracks, so then it seems logical to release it as an ep or something.

[alessio]

With CDR, tape, etc. basically only limitation is state of mind.

The limited edition cdr is something I'll never understand.

Theorically speaking, you're right
But that would imply only making 'standard' releases, i mean standard CDr's/tapes on standard cases with standard covers (like WCN, which was mentioned before: black tapes on black cases with b/w covers)
Which ISN'T a bad thing at all (don't get me wrong)

But what when you do different package for every release? (like i did, for example)
Maybe it simply was a bad idea..

I'm just saying because i agree 'against' the ultra limited issue and would like to have some past releases always available (also because a lot of effort was put on them and would like them to have bigger diffusion), but yeah, i can't have a constant stockage of white standard or transparent slim DVD cases, black or white glossy CDr's, for example (that's because every release was thought as a complete 'design' thing, package, cover, disc and obviously the noise inside it), not to say it would be difficult to print quality digital color covers on demand (i mean, i'm not big label and don't have a top notch quality digital printer at home)

I'm not arguing, just wondering

[Zeno Marx]

When  I read this title, I thought of a zine that is 2x(11x17)+3"CD limited to 12 copies for $12ppd.  I'm not knocking this person/artist, but the idea of this completely baffles me.  The things that come to mind are:  1)  why not save up material and do a single issue that is 20 pages?  2)  Why not give away something like this for free?  (thinking of Mosh of Ass free zine of similar length and layout, given out with orders and sent to distributors to give out for free with their orders).  Why would anyone pay for 2x(11x17)?  Mask it as charity in your own mind and justify it that way?

If the demand isn't plentiful enough to get rid of such an edition, maybe that is telling you something.  Content is questionable?  Price is exorbitant?  Quantity of content makes it odd/seem questionable?

The situation is very interesting to me, and as I said, baffles me.  It's more intriguing and interesting to me than the zine itself ever could be.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

What I liked about some labels, was existence of "collector edition" or should it be "art edition", but also existence of regular.
In some cases, like G.R.O.S.S., you could hurry up to be among 50 first to grab metal edition tape. Or settle with chrome.
I see surprisingly many tapes appearing now, where it really not that special. I mean, two 1" buttons and sticker? Ziplock plastic bag with color print?

Everything is limited to certain extent and I have no objections for that. I was rather wishing the discussion what would discuss the logic. The purpose of existence of certain products and lack of other option. What used to be pretty much standard (list given earlier). And what nowadays is pretty much non-existent. As if the motivations to "run label" would have changed drastically.

[SKY BURIAL]

The logic was stated earlier: demand. Most of the "micro editions" are done by folks who know they'll never move more than 20. Even with 20 they probably give half away within their incestuous social circle. That's not meant in any offensive way, it's just reality.

All small music scenes have always had a "collector culture". I'm sure some of those putting out super limited releases are looking get a piece of that market and use the "limited" factor as a marketing ploy to ensure a quick sale. Collecting is a disease.

[WATERPOWER]

I'll add another edge of my mind to this discussion that has come up when planning a couple future releases:

With the money that I've generated for releases, do I A) make a smaller quantity with awesome packaging, or B) make a larger quantity with more standard packaging?

In my mind, I would rather own something with better packaging over something standard, therefore, I go with what I prefer as a consumer.

Though, in regards to WATERPOWER, I do hope to start doing larger, less limited releases with what Mikko mentioned a couple posts above, "art" or "collector" editions. I love that idea. When it's done correctly, it can be beautiful. I'm specifically thinking of that Rapoon boxset that came out a few years ago that was just filled with beautiful artwork and whatnot. Love it, and looking forward to topping it.

[Zeno Marx]

With the money that I've generated for releases, do I A) make a smaller quantity with awesome packaging, or B) make a larger quantity with more standard packaging?

My question to this is:  is there really a difference between $100 investment and $300?  In the grand scheme of things in life, is $200 really going to change the direction of how you see a release being realized?  Add this to the odd things I find in noise today.  Folks acting like their label, or project, is such a huge financial burden, and when you see the releases, you can safely estimate they're sinking less than $100 into each one (far less in many instances).  In those cases, I also can't help but wonder, "if that is all they're worth in terms of investment, which isn't a perspective I necessarily feel comfortable taking, then why are you messing with it at all?"

I don't throw money around in my life.  I'm frugal.  I value the dollar.  I understand the value of the dollar.  Nevertheless, when it comes to something  like a label or a project, money falls on the underside of priorities.  As a consumer, I approach things much differently, but as a once-label, I consider a few hundred dollars to be trivial.  Then again, I never viewed my label as secondary income or a way to put food on the table.

[Nyodene D]

Disgust, the band I see is being worshipped by some people as great new force bending the line between pe &.. ehm.. "grind"? Perhaps close to old Bloodyminded? I don't know. Ltd 65 copies of tape was sold out before I noticed it.

Influenced by grind is a bit too much of a stretch. Those guys (Koufar, Winters In Osaka, Deterge) from Disgust are huge fans of grind / powerviolence, but it's not like Disgust is "cybergrind" or anything less than serious... maybe the occasional powerviolence cover (done as PE, which isn't a stretch considering legacy of Bastard Noise) or splits with acts like Joshua Norton Cabal (side project of Endless Blockade). When you consider the release on Danvers State ("Where Angels...") is their first full-length, it's not outlandish to assume that people will be less inclined to take the chance on a release.  It's also being looked at for reissue (I can also burn you a copy of this disc if you haven't heard it, Mikko).

Nyodene D did pretty nice tape on Obscurex. Available and easy to get. Meanwhile there was 45 copies tape sold out, and new c-60 that came out is 25 copies. Hmm 25? Well, seems like CDR version also on its way.

Thanks for the compliment, that means a lot.  The 45 copy tape was my debut full-length on anything other than a netlabel (my own, but still not really a good measure of attention payed to it) and came out before the obscurex one.  I did two tapes (one was a split) between these two in editions of 100, which seems to be a good round number for a young, fairly obscure artist doing a release.  Regarding my recent c-60, I am thanking my lucky stars it was limited to 25.  Label completely botched it (packaging, dubbing, quality, etc), and I want it stricken from memory.  The reissue on live bait is limited to 100 (as a CDr, yes it's weird to limit, but i'm sure a repress would not be out of the question eventually, or I'll burn up a copy for anyone if it's really that in demand).  My next few releases will likely be in a big enough edition where people who want them should be able to get them. Slated are pro CDs on Assembly of Hatred (300) and Black Plague (probably at least 500) and a tape on Nil By Mouth. Given the recent experience I had with a more "shoebox" (?) label, I will likely not work with labels of that caliber/ethic any more.  I would aslo like to do editions of around 100, which is not unreasonable because I feel I can simply sell more tapes than that. Would i do an edition of 1000 though?  Likely not, because I'd be worried that the label would not be able to recoup enough and I'd be taking food out of a family's mouth or something.   

My friend used to do edition of 1000 CD for stuff that, while excellent material, you have to wonder if it will sell.  Sure, he'll likely break even after the first 150 (all that matters if you ask me), but the remaining 850?  Those are gravy.  However, as anyone eating leftovers knows, you get sick of seeing them in the icebox eventually.  Consider in our scene that there's AT MOST maybe 3000? 4000?  Then consider that people into industrial / pe probably makes up only 1/3 to 1/2 of that.  By then, it means that a huge edition of something (1000) means that 50% to 60% approx of the scene would have that record if it sold out. 

With the DVD we are doing (the City / Ruins documentary), we are doing an initial run of 500 now in DVD case because we found a good deal on pressing.  We are nearly at the goal required to press, so it means that we will be able to sell at a very reasonable price for a feature-length documentary.  However, if 500 people own the film, like it's been mentioned, you have to consider how many can be repressed before oversaturating the market for any release.

I think simply, there are many excellent tape labels (Phage, NBM, Danvers State, Destructive Industries, Obscurex) who do runs of 50 - 150 and are open to repressing things.  It's not that they're trying  to do fetish items or start a collector's market (which people accuse Hospital and other labels of), but that they're just guys running a label as a hobby and trying to make sure their supply is realistic in terms of demand.

A final note, consider that a Grunt release today in an edition of 100 would be relatively more limited than myself doing an edition of 100, but less limited than, say, a Whitehouse or Prurient in edition of 100   

[FreakAnimalFinland]

The logic was stated earlier: demand. Most of the "micro editions" are done by folks who know they'll never move more than 20. Even with 20 they probably give half away within their incestuous social circle. That's not meant in any offensive way, it's just reality.

Yeah, but logic is simply shattered when just about all of these releases are sold out in blink of an eye. This was, and is the argument. If there is a limited edition, what goes perfectly hand in hand with audience, of course it's well done. Most of the cases, it is irrelevant, since label or band who does such things, are irrelevant in first place. But, again, I should remind there was given examples when it does matter. At least from my perspective.

All small music scenes have always had a "collector culture". I'm sure some of those putting out super limited releases are looking get a piece of that market and use the "limited" factor as a marketing ploy to ensure a quick sale. Collecting is a disease.

This is probably more accurate, but then we get into question, do you need marketing ploy to ensure sales of 20? Or... 6? If you have for example HNW CDR set ltd 6 copies, do you need to post it all over internet, if you already know about 10 times more people who you could mail direct, who are the ones who buy it.

As said by Sky Burial, Collecting is a disease. I wouldn't necessarily go that far, yet I know what it mean. But what this disease results has shows in many genres it's reality. One could ask, how long we've been in situation when "noise isn't enough"? In metal, the marketing ploys have been for long focusing on 1) limited edition 2) collectible "special edition", meaning most of all highly superficial added nonsense 3) controversy.  If band releases LP, which is amazing, but none of this, it might be utterly ignored. Band who was never that special, who possess these 3 qualities, tops it anytime.
Of course, this is just the music business as usual. But question remains, when noise isn't enough? When you find out about release, and you can say to friend "get this soon, it'll be gone". When you get a release, you can say I almost pissed my pants when I saw the collector edition of C93 box set!! It's MANDATORY. But what about the sound? The noise? The "release" stripped down from music business characteristics? Did you listen to it? So well, you can actually say to someone how was it. Should he give it a change? Why this, instead of 30 other items what he has to decide this week or forget about?
Demand, is not something you can measure by seeing what happens when release is NOT available. It is something what you can measure when it IS available. With discussions of various label bosses, many say that after edition sold out, they didn't get any inquiries about it. Of course not. It gets more and more rare, that someone actually approaches label or band to ask what they have, since everybody's aim is to sell out and have nothing. As soon as possible. This is the modern method of any business. Everybody claims the warehouse full of stuff is bad for business. And then you ask, so is your band your business? Is all you value current market tactics?

I know, that most of people of my generation, probably started the label from doing summer jobs and other things to finance releases. There was like one place to dub tapes, no places within country to press vinyl.  You'd cycle to bank to wire money to other side of europe and hope the one and only master tape you sent, comes out as good vinyl. Or the tape, you'd come from school and spend rest of the day doing nothing but dubbing. And any order or trade you may got, was treated as pretty special. You browsed catalogue that came out last year, and you could send order, since whole catalogue was available on demand (RRR, Grey Wolves, Nihilistic,..). And you got some great value for your money when a 5$ tape came for constant rotation.

I know THIS is the nostalgia, where is no return and wouldn't even want the negative hassle, yet it showed to me the time when people did care in different ways. I guess it would instantly bleed to other already existing topics as "noise albums", "is noise meant for listening", and so on. But to me, when surrounded by people with strategies, ploys, marketing tactics, sales speeches,.... and limited to XX, often question raises isn't noise enough? And why is so? Why for label it would be good to focus all energy on volume of releases directed to tiniest possible audience and multiply it to maximum. Instead of focus some energy to make it slightly wider? I know answer probably is that "I don't give a fuck", "I don't care". But still, the decisions are made, and what people seem to care, seem to be pretty strange ideals.

I'm all for ART editions. I have no interest for consumer bling bling editions. I rather focus on the approach where noise matters, and with good art edition, it compliments rather than taints.

[alessio]

This is the modern method of any business. Everybody claims the warehouse full of stuff is bad for business. And then you ask, so is your band your business? Is all you value current market tactics?

I know, that most of people of my generation, probably started the label from doing summer jobs and other things to finance releases. There was like one place to dub tapes, no places within country to press vinyl.  You'd cycle to bank to wire money to other side of europe and hope the one and only master tape you sent, comes out as good vinyl. Or the tape, you'd come from school and spend rest of the day doing nothing but dubbing. And any order or trade you may got, was treated as pretty special. You browsed catalogue that came out last year, and you could send order, since whole catalogue was available on demand (RRR, Grey Wolves, Nihilistic,..). And you got some great value for your money when a 5$ tape came for constant rotation.

I have the same feelings, although didn't personally experience the old days
Anyway i can definitely see the difference, guess a release was treated as something very special, a milestone in a band/project story, while nowadays it is just something that 'happens', passes and rest in the past as faint memory, while brand new latest releases are already coming out every month

And i can clearly see how this influences the effort put into every release, also in promoting them
Maybe demand is very low, but i don't see much 'marketing' effort in most cases, because it's sold before you even need to do some 'marketing' (i mean it in the most basic form, sending promos, contacting resellers, distros and the likes)
I'm not talking of huge numbers, i guess 100 pieces would be already enough to need bigger efforts in most cases
(I'm coming from the HNW scene, where 30 copies may already be seen as a fairly big number)

Releases as fast food, you buy, you consume, and you go on with the latest ones
(And if something you released wasn't good enough, no problem, nobody will really remember that, although the same probably occurs when you release pure gold)

I have also the feeling that you, as a (little) label, would have some 'problems' trying to actually change that, because the only way to get highest quality content from artists may be to promise it's gonna be on beautiful unique editions, otherwise it's gonna be just one of the tens other average releases by that project
(Intentionally exaggerating it here, but i think reality isn't that far away)

Anyway... this is another (less dramatic) way i was trying to look at it: instead of having 1 release on 100 copies, you have, say, 3 releases on 33 copies each, that means the same quantity and potentially the same diffusion..

[Goat93]

I think, there is another Point in it. Its somekind of this Collection Attitude and den Mp3 Issue together. There are no more closed "Scenes", 15 Years back there were closed "Scenes", the People listen mostly to one Music, if Noise, Metal, Punk or whatever. Nowadays the People listen to ALL Music at the same time. And i wonder since Years, where they got the Time for listening to all the Music with little concentration. Not just as Background Music. The Limitation of Releases springs to that Point in some Ways. First you got mentioned, the release is so Special and Limited it is worth to own but not to hear it. Its enought to have it. That Point is for example very clear for example at the Xeno/Goatmoon Split 7" which sold out totaly fast and only a few like it. You can found it in much Trade/Sale Lists now. (The Release came just in my mind, its no offense about it, since i like the xeno side a lot). In the Metal Section it is normal to buy limited Releases and put them aside, without listening to this special format. Downloading or buying Tape/CD/LP and play only CD is normal here. A lim. 13 Noise CDR then is put on the PC for one time and went then in some Collectors Boxes. This is a market Strategy too. Its senseless after all, but also reality.
Second Point is that you surely can download all stuff in the net, so its not needet to limit the stuff more, since someone will upload it on a Blog or you make it yourself. After releasing it takes 4-5 Days to find it on a Blog. And there is also the Question, what with the Deadstock. And Projects who are now big, can be smal again in little time. There is no garantee that they can sell everytime the same among. So, it makes sense in this way, when bigger projects limit the releases to sell them out fast and have no Backstock and have not overflown the Customers, that the next release will also sell out. Also a Selling Strategy. Its surely not good and the problems are clear, but it is just an answer and an idea bout the issue

[Andrew McIntosh]

15 Years back there were closed "Scenes", the People listen mostly to one Music, if Noise, Metal, Punk or whatever. Nowadays the People listen to ALL Music at the same time.

Do you really think so? I'd suggest that if anything, it's the other way around, since there's so many micro-genres around that a person can almost dwell exclusively on Noise even if they're going from Wall Noise to Harsh Noise to "just" Noise and on and on. But really, I think while most people will dwell on one or two genres for the most part, there's not many people who exclusively listen to just one genre. I'm sure there are such people, but I'd suggest they're in a minority.

Other than that, I think you make a few good points.

[imaginaryforces]

This thread has been quite an insight for me on peoples oppinions on this whole issue. As someone who has recently started to try and push a small label this is of huge interest to me.
My reasoning for limiting the first release to 50 CDrs was simply to test the waters, so to speak, to see if I could actually shift a release in the first place. So far so good, we have managed to shift a few in a short space of time.
I think if we sell all 50 and people still want more then I will do more. And I also plan to have unlimited digital releases in a choice of FLAC or MP3 etc, of every release once the CDs have sold out. (Although there seems to be a bit of a stigma within the Noise/Whatever you want to call it scene about digital.)
My intention is to build up the label to a point where we can do special edition releases of limited vinyl with special packaging or artwork, still at a minimum cost possible, and a standard run of CDs with booklet etc. I know that this will take time to build up, so I am taking things one step at a time.

[Goat93]

Its true that the people listen to any kind they like all the time, but the Focus were morely in one Section than in all at the same time. Its not unusual that the bandwide reaches all over the Musicgenres, since back in time the Identifikation were more. A Metalhead would listen more to metal than any other music genre ;)
The Splittering in Subgenres were an effect of this, too. Since the People want an Identification to be "more thatn music" or be in a "way of live" they need also such an identification. And "Music" as genre is not really such a thing. Since Black Metal is Popular, they needet names to be Black Metal but "true" or "evil" or anything they can differ from Pop Music. But thats only a Minority of course.

[GEWALTMONOPOL]

People should release less.