Witch Hunt Season is Open

[A-Z]

i'm sorry but this is a load of bullcrap
because...
first, the symbols in question were waaaay less taboo back then than they are now and
second, the only thing that changed is that back then authoritarian narrowminded assholes & volunteer snitches labeled themselves as conservatives
and now they prefer to be called "progressive left", and "antifascists", and "feminists"
but the overall situation is the same, only with more retardation and less tolerance for wrongthink
hence, the sad truth is that "nazi aesthetics" works exactly as it did in the 70s & 80s, only more efficiently

[host body]

i'm sorry but this is a load of bullcrap
because...
first, the symbols in question were waaaay less taboo back then than they are now and
second, the only thing that changed is that back then authoritarian narrowminded assholes & volunteer snitches labeled themselves as conservatives
and now they prefer to be called "progressive left", and "antifascists", and "feminists"
but the overall situation is the same, only with more retardation and less tolerance for wrongthink
hence, the sad truth is that "nazi aesthetics" works exactly as it did in the 70s & 80s, only more efficiently

this is completely and utterly not true but i suspect it would be pointless to discuss it with you i'll give up before we even start and agree to disagree.

[deutscheasphalt]

I was about to say - I don't even know where to begin. But I guess I can just copy their strategy of not addressing any particular point and then dismiss their whole argument by saying "that's a load of bullcrap" with the same legitimacy...

[l.b.]

respectfully to herr asphalt but I don't think one needed to have been around back then to see the obvious, glaring irony of early Whitehouse (for instance), and it's partly due to an overdose of digital-cultural irony that people assume folks back then must have been entirely genuine in their presentation.

[Theodore]

Do back then people cencored themselves to not be considered by others as bigots etc. ? Did they care ? Did audience care ? Seems not that much as today. Can you be creative this way ? - If you like someone's art why do you care what he is and try to categorize him with other criteria ? I ll tell you why, cause you care more about politics than about art. Maybe you feel angry he isn't on your side or ashamed of yourself you like his work. OK, understood, fine ! - Just be honest ! Points like this are not honest, also are wrong, and -psit- ineffective.

the internet is such a cesspool that those things do not shock anyone, using them as your main source of inspiration just makes people think you're a bigot.

Say you dont like -what you think is- their message. Say you like them to be different, say that you will fight them, say anything else than a half-political / half-musical career / personal advice [!] , like you do care of them . These people dont care what people will think of them, and if they do, that's their intention. - And yes those things still shock, more than ever it seems, judging by the reactions and crusades.

[host body]

You're reading those attacks and articles wrong, or the intent and meaning behind them. They're not attacks on art, they're attacks on right wing politics, and the reason they've become so common is that right wing political parties and fringe groups are a legitimate threat to Liberal democracy in a way that definitely was not the same in the late 70s and early 80. Back then the "enemy" was conservatism (thatcherism in the UK, Reagan in the states) , which was what TG and Whitehouse were poking at with their music.

The reason for that article about bower was not that his nazi paraphilia shocked anyone, its because right wing groups are very active in their own informational war and spread propaganda online, so left wing liberals fire back. Too bad bower got in the middle of it. As FAF said, I would understand the article if they actually had written it about a real "nazi". Like Rob Miller from amebix, hah

[JLIAT]

.... Back then the "enemy" was conservatism (thatcherism in the UK, Reagan in the states) , which was what TG and Whitehouse were poking at with their music.

Prostitution @ ICA was in 1976 - The Second Annual Report 1977... "use of often disturbing visual imagery (such as fascist and Nazi symbolism, and pornography)" Thatcher came to power in 1979, following The Winter of Discontent, Reagan came to power in 1981 - following from Carter -" The end of his presidential tenure was marked by the 1979–1981 Iran hostage crisis, the 1979 energy crisis.." Bennett -""While I was playing guitar up onstage with Essential Logic as an 18-year-old back in 1978, I often fantasised about creating a sound that could bludgeon an audience into submission. "

Maybe poking at the given outward social mores of the day.... but maybe the use of 'Nazi symbolism, and pornography' to attack the likes of Mary Whitehouse didn't help the targets of the lady, either lady...

[host body]

.... Back then the "enemy" was conservatism (thatcherism in the UK, Reagan in the states) , which was what TG and Whitehouse were poking at with their music.

Prostitution @ ICA was in 1976 - The Second Annual Report 1977... "use of often disturbing visual imagery (such as fascist and Nazi symbolism, and pornography)" Thatcher came to power in 1979, following The Winter of Discontent, Reagan came to power in 1981 - following from Carter -" The end of his presidential tenure was marked by the 1979–1981 Iran hostage crisis, the 1979 energy crisis.." Bennett -""While I was playing guitar up onstage with Essential Logic as an 18-year-old back in 1978, I often fantasised about creating a sound that could bludgeon an audience into submission. "

Maybe poking at the given outward social mores of the day.... but maybe the use of 'Nazi symbolism, and pornography' to attack the likes of Mary Whitehouse didn't help the targets of the lady, either lady...

My mistake, they both started before thatcher and Reagan, but my point about conservatism still stands. Pornography, homosexuality, violent images etc. Could and would get you jail time back then. It's ludicrous to claim that the the kind of imaginery is as taboo now as it was in the late 70s or early 80s.

[tiny_tove]

WTF guys. So-called Antifas has been pestering the scenes since the mid 90s blocking gigs of non-NS groups by guilt of association or presumptions. The more projects explained themselves or allowed to differ from their pre-sorosite/socialist worker agenda they got crucified. Some got physically attacked, some lost their jobs (all true) all based on assumptions.

I could make you a list of these accidents I have witnessed in first person who touched people I collaborated shoulder to shoulder and were in no way politically involved and neither used political symbols but just said things that underground illusionists didn't like, afraid to loose cultural monopoly.

I won't spend a single world regarding ambiguities that make post industrial and noise so interesting to many, since everything and the contrary of everything was said in this thread (see my previous posts if you are bored).

Mikko's last post suits my thoughts 100%. Deal with the guys you are after (if you have the guts), don't make up proxy-nazis involving people who are not saying what you think they are saying, and don't complain if somebody knock at your door if you spread lies.

[host body]

Mikko's last post suits my thoughts 100%. Deal with the guys you are after (if you have the guts), don't make up proxy-nazis involving people who are not saying what you think they are saying

agree with this, it's stupid to "out" someone like bower

[tiny_tove]

My mistake, they both started before thatcher and Reagan, but my point about conservatism still stands. Pornography, homosexuality, violent images etc. Could and would get you jail time back then. It's ludicrous to claim that the the kind of imaginery is as taboo now as it was in the late 70s or early 80s.

Agreed on this topic, but once can be still using these imagery and topics for different reasons. Personal obsession, focus on specific aspects of each of this.
SK are now a goofy topic that people should forget about THEN works of genious like Martin Bladh's work on Dennis Nielsen  or mainstream TV shows like Manhunter comes and I drool like a girl in her prime in front of a boy band because there is still much to do with that.

Each noisester is dragged into this for different reason (including the good old fun at the expense of the others that is still the backbone of power electronics and has no ambiguity despite the apparent superficial statement). I don't want to get told what I have to read, buy, say, play, fuck, etc. And the above mentioned thought police plays with guilt where they cannot reach with boycott campaigns involving authorities or violence.

It has been a relatively quiet period compared to what happened in the 90's early 2000, but they now have these strong-power -sponsored think tanks that will point fingers because you beg to differ and will not leave space fore clear open discussion. Something I'm no longer to have with such scumbags.

[JLIAT]

I don't really wish to get embroiled in this, but I don't think the use of extreme Nazi imaginary, sado masochism, child pornography and serial murderers et al. was back in the 70s & 80s of any help or support to those defending the liberties of free speech, gay and feminist rights etc. which were under attack by the likes of Mary Whitehouse & her  "Moral Re-Armament". 

As far as i'm aware child pornography will still get you into jail these days along with the newer hate crimes... looking at it this way using pictures of Nazi death chambers and associated insignia 31 years after the actual events didn't get those using them into jail, 44 years later a group using certain extreme religious tropes and reference to events of 911 would.

In 1968 GPO publishing instructions on how to build a Molotov cocktail.... didn't, would something similar now?

I'm cautions to say this but it could be that TG & Whitehouse's  themes back then was more to shock an audience, rather than any genuine political critique.  I don't think they, certainly not GPO was advocating Nazi extremism and paedophilia any more than Jake and Dinos Chapman using similar tropes, including child pornography, as YBAs in the 90s.  The "irony" of the YBAs being perhaps more obvious. That some took this at all seriously?

[PuddysJacket]

right wing political parties are a genuine threat? To what...illegal immigration? The rights of transvestites to striptease for 1st graders in the name of acceptance?

Sorry but you're a sucker who took the bait they've been forcing down our throats. Nobody protests the globalists ruining the world, but right and left are fistfighting in the streets over whatever issue is trending on IG that week. Wake up.

[Theodore]

So, host body, you support to 'out' artists if they are really against your beliefs, in this case against liberal democracy. And you advice anyone 'innocent' to not use the 'wrong' inspiration, to avoid being a target by misunderstanding. It's that simple, isn't it ? Why the fuck do you need an analysis to cover , justify , excuse this ?

[PuddysJacket]

i'm sorry but this is a load of bullcrap
because...
first, the symbols in question were waaaay less taboo back then than they are now and
second, the only thing that changed is that back then authoritarian narrowminded assholes & volunteer snitches labeled themselves as conservatives
and now they prefer to be called "progressive left", and "antifascists", and "feminists"
but the overall situation is the same, only with more retardation and less tolerance for wrongthink
hence, the sad truth is that "nazi aesthetics" works exactly as it did in the 70s & 80s, only more efficiently

this is completely and utterly not true but i suspect it would be pointless to discuss it with you i'll give up before we even start and agree to disagree.

if you think nazi imagery was more shocking in the 80s than it is now, you're delusional. People are hailing pieces of shit like Mike Brown as heroes. Black Israelites are posting videos of white couples literally licking their boots in nyc. 20% of the population in the states commits 70% of the violent crime and the general feeling among 18-30 yr olds is to regard the offenders as disenfranchised kings. I don't know that there has ever been a creature on this earth as out of touch with reality as the modern day white liberal.