COVID-19

[deutscheasphalt]

I'm not familiar with the overall sentiment in Germany being "chill out, bro". They're already closing schools, workplaces and mobilize hospital capacities. It seems to be a rather cautious approach.

Also can you give an example for this claim:

you can now find German and Swedish far right people posting the exact same information and arguments as US progressives

?

[HESalvo]

I still have a fundamental (emotional/gut) instinct that this is all overblown and possibly borderline humbug, but since it seems to benefit literally no-one and perhaps more importantly be completely unpredictable as to its outcome, it is very difficult to find any usual suspects' motive. It is obviously very bad for virtually all economies and countries, it is equally obviously viciously "anti-globlist" given its effects on borders, ethnic suspicions etc. Add to that the massive blow to all governments who either overdo under underdo things, and the fact that if the consequences are bad but not apocalyptic, there will be millions of people who hold either opinion at the same time (=populist golden moment). If you want to tinfoil hat this one, it would have to be something like "Western intelligence agencies trying to stunt Chinese growth" or "USA/Israel trying to break/limit China and Europe", and it just seems a bit much and too stupid for me.

All this would indicate that we have no choice but to revert to taking things at face value. The problem is then that there is no "face value" upon which to take things. The experts and officials we are supposed to trust once we ween ourselves off of fake news and online hatred contradict each other at every turn, with numerous respectable researchers quoting "50-70% infection rates" even while others says we should all just keep calm and keep going to the local swinger party. Geopolitically, the battle lines are all screwed up - basically you have a restrictive/cautious team consisting of among others China, Italy, Denmark, the Ukraine and Norway, and the "flatten the curve and chill out, bro" countries consisting of such ideological buddies as Boris' UK, Sweden, Germany and Trump's USA. And, obviously, all these governments have their opponents in the form of online haters and resisters, which means you can now find German and Swedish far right people posting the exact same information and arguments as US progressives (Bidenites and radicals alike). It's all very odd, and somewhat hilarious, but it does not make things easier to understand.

Philip Giraldi, a former CIA agent and head director for Council for the National Interest unironically postulates that the USA and Israel may have "created" the virus in a lab, because why not I guess:

https://www.globalresearch.ca/who-made-coronavirus-u-s-israel-china/5705628

[WhiteWarlock]

I was part of the overhype demographic myself but listening to this has swayed me a bit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3URhJx0NSw

Dude is very honest, direct, no sugarcoating of anything - he even predicted this occurring.
I, like I'm sure many of us on this board, am innately skeptical about a lot of things. But dude is laying down some hard fuckin' science.
While both unbelievable and very believable, how head-scratching is it that to get a deep understanding of what's happening we must turn to Joe Rogan...

"The war within the next decade will be microbes rather than missiles."
-Bill Gates, 2015

thanks posting info

[WhiteWarlock]

WTF is this: SHC014-CoV
SHC014-CoV is SARS-like coronavirus which infects horseshoe bats, first discovered in China in 2013. In 2015, the Wuhan Institute of Virology conducted research showing the virus could be made to infect the human HeLa cell line, through the use of reverse genetics to create a chimeric virus consisting of a surface protein of SHC014 and the backbone of a SARS virus.

Update (March 11, 2020): On social media and news outlets, a theory has circulated that the coronavirus at the root of the COVID-19 outbreak originated in a research lab. "Scientists say there is no evidence that the SARS-CoV-2 virus escaped from a lab."

Lab-Made Coronavirus Triggers Debate
The creation of a chimeric SARS-like virus has scientists discussing the risks of gain-of-function research.
Nov 16, 2015

Ralph Baric, an infectious-disease researcher at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, last week (November 9) published a study on his team's efforts to engineer a virus with the surface protein of the SHC014 coronavirus, found in horseshoe bats in China, and the backbone of one that causes human-like severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) in mice. The hybrid virus could infect human airway cells and caused disease in mice, according to the team's results, which were published in Nature Medicine.

The results demonstrate the ability of the SHC014 surface protein to bind and infect human cells, validating concerns that this virus—or other coronaviruses found in bat species—may be capable of making the leap to people without first evolving in an intermediate host, Nature reported. They also reignite a debate about whether that information justifies the risk of such work, known as gain-of-function research. "If the [new] virus escaped, nobody could predict the trajectory," Simon Wain-Hobson, a virologist at the Pasteur Institute in Paris, told Nature.

In October 2013, the US government put a stop to all federal funding for gain-of-function studies, with particular concern rising about influenza, SARS, and Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS). "NIH [National Institutes of Health] has funded such studies because they help define the fundamental nature of human-pathogen interactions, enable the assessment of the pandemic potential of emerging infectious agents, and inform public health and preparedness efforts," NIH Director Francis Collins said in a statement at the time. "These studies, however, also entail biosafety and biosecurity risks, which need to be understood better."

Baric's study on the SHC014-chimeric coronavirus began before the moratorium was announced, and the NIH allowed it to proceed during a review process, which eventually led to the conclusion that the work did not fall under the new restrictions, Baric told Nature. But some researchers, like Wain-Hobson, disagree with that decision.

The debate comes down to how informative the results are. "The only impact of this work is the creation, in a lab, of a new, non-natural risk," Richard Ebright, a molecular biologist and biodefence expert at Rutgers University, told Nature.

But Baric and others argued the study's importance. "The result move this virus from a candidate emerging pathogen to a clear and present danger," Peter Daszak, president of the EcoHealth Alliance, which samples viruses from animals and people in emerging-diseases hotspots across the globe, told Nature.


hmmm so basically multiple Governments have been fucking around toying with SHC014-CoV in research labs as bio-weapon for around 5 years???!
maybe the Oligarchs & political leaders are worried since they travel the globe shaking hands with random people constantly...
& they tend being in the prime kill zone age range for C19...
plus they have inside intelligence on what C19 actually is...
just taking guess...
~shrug~

Nothing to see here folks... move along... keep moving... KEEP MOVING!
LOCK IT ALL DOWN

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/20/virus-experiments-risk-global-pandemic
https://www.businessinsider.com/nih-lifts-ban-on-flu-mers-sars-virus-gain-of-function-research-2017-12?op=1
Multiple Gov backed researchers have been fucking around with creating increased "Gain of Function" pandemics recently....
Bill & Melinda Gates have supposedly gone for Safe Virus Free Zone...
What's up with that???
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/13/bill-gates-leaves-microsoft-board.html

[JLIAT]

WTF is this: SHC014-CoV

You answer your own question...?

hmmm so basically multiple Governments have been fucking around toying with SHC014-CoV in research labs as bio-weapon for around 5 years???!

Where above does any mention of bio weapon occur? Is any research into disease in animals and humans for you 'research  as bio-weapons'?

Some biological agents (smallpox, pneumonic plague) have the capability of person-to-person transmission via aerosolized respiratory droplets. This feature can be undesirable, as the agent(s) may be transmitted by this mechanism to unintended populations, including neutral or even friendly forces....

It has been argued that rational state actors would never use biological weapons offensively. The argument is that biological weapons cannot be controlled: the weapon could backfire and harm the army on the offensive, perhaps having even worse effects than on the target. An agent like smallpox or other airborne viruses would almost certainly spread worldwide and ultimately infect the user's home country. However, this argument does not necessarily apply to bacteria. For example, anthrax can easily be controlled and even created in a garden shed; the FBI suspects it can be done for as little as $2,500 using readily available laboratory equipment.

"This sort of work is known as "gain of function" research. It could help us prepare for the possibility that a virus like this might evolve in nature."

The 1918 pandemic killed approximately 50 million people around the globe, making it one of the deadliest events in human history. Some experts believe that if we can create these types of viruses ourselves in a lab, then we might be able to better understand them before (or when) they naturally appear.

[tiny_tove]

Situation is fucked here.
Pre-apocalyptic atmosphere, people living abroad or in other regions are requested to stay where they are.
Controls on the streets are stricters.
Massive increase of death in some towns.

Bergamo published 10 pages of obituaries. Many people dead, they keep being moved from hospital straight to crematory.

The myth the virus was hitting only over 60s and people with illnesses has faded since it is killing and infecting people of any age.

Switzerland is next.

[Balor/SS1535]

Situation is fucked here.
Pre-apocalyptic atmosphere, people living abroad or in other regions are requested to stay where they are.
Controls on the streets are stricters.
Massive increase of death in some towns.

Bergamo published 10 pages of obituaries. Many people dead, they keep being moved from hospital straight to crematory.

The myth the virus was hitting only over 60s and people with illnesses has faded since it is killing and infecting people of any age.

Switzerland is next.

That's horrible.  I have not heard of anyone who was not elderly or compromised in some way dying from it.

[WhiteWarlock]

Situation is fucked here.
Pre-apocalyptic atmosphere, people living abroad or in other regions are requested to stay where they are.
Controls on the streets are stricters.
Massive increase of death in some towns.

Bergamo published 10 pages of obituaries. Many people dead, they keep being moved from hospital straight to crematory.

The myth the virus was hitting only over 60s and people with illnesses has faded since it is killing and infecting people of any age.

Switzerland is next.

Seriously appreciate your posting first hand insights...
All we can do here is speculate upon what is coming & why from flood bombardment of contrary information sources...
Pardon any attempts mitigating the usual SouthParkesque absurdity with humor & Research...
The public here usually are lied to for being manipulated over even the most basic of things...
Thus distrust, skepticism, sarcasm and looking beyond the facade are natural defensive protocols anymore...
Grazie di cuore

[Yrjö-Koskinen]

I'm not familiar with the overall sentiment in Germany being "chill out, bro". They're already closing schools, workplaces and mobilize hospital capacities. It seems to be a rather cautious approach.

I'm revising that assessment. It was based on the fact that Germany kept it's border open (until now), and some anecdotal examples of events and institutions remaining open I'd run across. I suppose it makes more sense to put Germany in the other camp now.

Also can you give an example for this claim:

you can now find German and Swedish far right people posting the exact same information and arguments as US progressives

?

Having used the term "far right" I'm loath to name individual Twitter accounts. But my broader point was that the outside-of-the-mainstream Right in Scandinavia (and, as far as I've seen, Germany) by and large have urged sterner measures. For instance the AfD was early on wanting to close the border (https://jungefreiheit.de/politik/deutschland/2020/corona-afd-fordert-einreisestopp-und-grenzkontrollen), and the Swedish libertarian/anti-immigration web outlet Fria Tider has been aggressively critical of the government and at least somewhat alarmist about the virus' potential (I think a google translate of http://friatider.se will give you a fairly accurate pictures, wenn dein Schwedisch etwas rostig ist). Additionally, at least the Scandinavian Left largely seems to defend the government's manjana attitude, saying that there is no scientific reason to, for example, close schools or even test anyone but the critically ill. In the US, the roles are literally reversed, with Trump initially minimizing the importance of the virus, and many right wing folks making arguments very similar to those made by Scandinavian Left wing governments and their supporters (here's Rush, for instance: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/2020/03/14/60_million_infected_300000_hospitalized10_years_ago_504451.html). This is also mirrored on social media.

I realize that this is a reflection of who is in government and who is not, but it still says something about our present time. I'm not one to call for "unity" in any realistic sense as things stand in the world right now, and obviously views differ (and some people are stupid and should shut up). Still, we do have a problem when political allegiance - not even ideology, as my examples show, but belonging to a faction within a nation or online context - controls people's perception of reality to such a degree that they judge everything based on nothing but that allegiance.

As things stand, it has become impossible to know whether this is the most retarded case of mass hysteria ever, or an example of numerous nations ruining everything by underestimating the danger of a new Spanish Flu. The truth could lie somewhere in between, but that isn't necessarily the case. I do wish people would spend less time making shit up and trolling each other, and more time actually trying to get to grips with what is going on.

[deutscheasphalt]

The myth the virus was hitting only over 60s and people with illnesses has faded since it is killing and infecting people of any age.

I don't remember anyone saying it was hitting ages 60+ only. Just that the vast majority of deaths occur in older age groups, which the data proves.
https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.com/comment/italy-coronavirus-outbreak

[deutscheasphalt]

As things stand, it has become impossible to know whether this is the most retarded case of mass hysteria ever, or an example of numerous nations ruining everything by underestimating the danger of a new Spanish Flu. The truth could lie somewhere in between, but that isn't necessarily the case. I do wish people would spend less time making shit up and trolling each other, and more time actually trying to get to grips with what is going on.

The fact that it's so hard to grasp what's actually going with all these irrational decisions made both by powerful leaders and ordinary citizens with average intelligence on leads me to believe that everything that's happening right now is just a really bizarre unfolding of the human psyche in a globalized interconnected world. Death counts are ridiculous but compared to this the impact on the economy and restrictions within states is insane. That's why people's experiences with the virus are mostly only affected by things indirectly caused by an irrational fear of the virus and not the virus itself.

[WhiteWarlock]

UK may put all citizens over 70 into isolation for MONTHS as coronavirus spreads across the country
UK's Health Secretary confirmed plans to isolate people aged over 70 for up to four months amid a coronavirus pandemic. The goal is to protect them, but critics say it may be a really bad idea.

Isolating the elderly is "clearly in the action plan" Health Secretary Matt Hancock has told Sky News, confirming earlier reports in the British media. "We will be setting it out with more detail when it's the right time to do," he added, which may come within weeks.

"We absolutely appreciate that it is a very big ask of the elderly and the vulnerable, and it's for their own self-protection," Hancock told Sky News' Sophy Ridge.

Earlier ITV's political editor Robert Peston said the British government was likely to enforce a "wartime-style" mobilization effort and other emergency measures, including isolation of elderly people.

Britain has 1,140 confirmed cases of the Covid-19 disease, with the death toll standing at 21. Elderly people have shown to be more vulnerable to the virus, as they are more likely to develop serious symptoms.

The British government has been criticized for its response to the coronavirus epidemic, which seems to be focused on building up "herd immunity," rather than restraining the spread of the virus.

The plan to have elderly people isolated for months is a testament to the toll that the Tory governments' measures had on the NHS. It also subjects them to increased risks of depression and other problems, some critics say.

The UK has been relatively modest in taking steps like banning mass gatherings, closing schools or restricting travel compared to other countries combating the epidemic. The rationale is that tougher controls will be needed when there are more cases in the country, and that imposing them now would be less efficient because people would not observe them for long.

The approach was blasted in an open letter from dozens of scientists, who said postponing "social distancing" measures was not a viable option and that it would only result in overwhelming the British healthcare system.

https://www.rt.com/uk/483166-uk-elderly-people-isolation/

Let's see what this is all like in 30 days....
Is it an easy excuse for or Orwellian Gov/Medical/Military industry tyranny?
Problem Reaction Solution

[holy ghost]

Assuming tomorrow Toronto and other major cities get locked down. My parents are on vacation in the US and trying to get home. Really hoping they don't get stuck in the US for this. Imagine having that shit-ass health care system taking care of your aging parents trying to enjoy their retirement?

I'm a frontline community healthcare worker and the situation is really grim. I'm sure I'd pull through but I've got my wife to think about - can't risk infecting my aging folks, I have friends with kids, etc. Self isolation seems really really extreme until you think about all the people you could be passing it too without knowing. Anyway, wash your hands!

[absurdexposition]

Assuming tomorrow Toronto and other major cities get locked down.

All venues in Montreal will be closed for at least 30 days and the premier is requesting most businesses close and that people only leave their homes for food or medical reasons. We jumped from 24 to 39 cases in Quebec over night. The numbers are still small in comparison, but it's evident that this escalates quickly. Lockdown does seem like the only next step after this, and the premier has previously stated that he will lockdown the entire island of Montreal if necessary.

[deutscheasphalt]

The number of old people we save from dying to the virus is gonna be matched by the number of suicides from people being unemployed due to all the shut downs...
Maybe Greta planned all this to stop people from flying.