MISSING... But what?

[Bloated Slutbag]

I can still conclude that that was fucking brilliant. Project being The New Boyfriends.

I actually hesitated to pick that up, not for the name but because I was only familiar with the (admittedly quite rrrripping) Aprapat half. Duly sample via bandcamp and once that first metal-on-metal whang whangs home- instant wood.

Will definitely need to properly read through this thread but am now in the middle of a meeting, heh.

[theotherjohn]

Zeno makes some valid points about establishing classics in a genre, but I'm not sure that is something to be aspired to in noise. A critical ear or eye is important of course, but when pinnacles, masterpieces or canons are established, it often marks the death knell of a body of work. Just like major record labels releasing Best Of compilations to fulfill an artist's contract, or retrospective exhibitions being organised by art galleries to mark the legacy of an artist that has seemingly reached their prime. It's good that discussions like this are being raised that something IS still missing in noise, as it implies that work is still yet to be done and territories are still to be explored, even if right now we might be examining this from a nostalgic standpoint. Nostaglia, of course, used to be considered an illness...

Novelty is crucial, and it's likely what got us all interested in noise in the first place. Be it from reading about notorious Hanatarash shows of the past... picking up a NON 7 inch with multiple spindle holes and locked grooves... trying to avoid having to get a tetanus jab from handling a noise release covered in rust, razor blades, or barbed or mesh wire... receiving a mail order package that comes with a handwritten letter/postcard, bizarre xeroxed fliers or even having everything packaged up in torn pages from a local newspaper in the sender's native language... the list goes on and we can all name examples, be they small or large, experienced or apocryphal. But the internet (which we've seemingly all defined as the culprit to blame) has dulled the impact that all this has. Remember the "PayPal'd" meme of the Troniks forum? What a curse that turned out to be in the end. All you need to do is add something to the Shopping Cart and that's it. Doesn't arrive? Bitch and complain about it online, and keep feeding the beast. And we don't even have to wait for the thing to arrive now in this digital age. It's just another folder on your hard drive with a square thumbnail, like every other album/download/rip/file you have. Not very noise if you ask me.

The commercial/economic point that Mikko raises is one contentious facet of noise, but again to ask another parallel question, what about the ecology of noise? Which again, Zeno and others hint at. What effect is the way you cultivate, organise, hunt, farm or destroy noise playing on your self and the larger environment in the short term and longer term? Is digital more of a burden than physical? Is a collection best appreciated when listened to until worn out, or played once/never before being shelved indefinitely? Aren't all vinyl releases ultimately limited editions? Will download cards go the way of the spraypainted CDr? What will replace tinnitus as an inevitable byproduct of noise for generations to come?

... sorry, I lost track of myself there.

[Duncan]

A lot of the movers and shakers (which is to say organisers) have moved on to other things. Some got sick of it, others became famous doing shitty techno and drone etc, now looking down somewhat on where they began (not big problem really, but a part of what we're talking about)

The internet has indeed enveloped things in ways that make them more sub divided, localised and temporary and there are fewer instances of meaningful interactions which lead to real life, actual in the world products of people communicating and working together. Sure, people trade files over the internet and throw out collabs which is cool, but gigs, touring etc....it seems quite rare now besides some of the usual people having their once a year holiday outing.  I was speaking with a friend about the old chondritic forum recently and for all the complaining about it at the time that was a spectacular resource of information and a hub in which a massive cross section of different networks did their thing showed what they were doing and shared space. A lot of older heads harped on about how the internet had spoiled the old ways of trading through mail and finding proper, in it for life contacts through STRUGGLE but I bet they never could have envisioned that so much of their culture would in less than 10 years become almost entirely mediated through posts on a social networking app. I'd love so much to be able to read back through that old deleted forum, I don't think many people realised at the time quite what it meant. And how could they have?

There is also way less happening now in terms of differing styles, aesthetics, approaches, people etc cross pollinating on the same platforms.  Might have been a UK specific thing but a typical gig in, say, 2006 could have seen some art hippies, weirdo loner solo noise act, screaming destructive 2 min set nutter with absurd props and then sort of industrial thing all happening in the same night. It felt like it was all part of the same world and coming from similar places but was stylistically totally different per each act.  Now it seems like all of those things exist but in separate, dedicated scenes which is boring. Same goes for a lot of releases with sounds and imagery treading the same ground over and over again. I just don't think there is the same variety or pool of influences for a lot of newer artists finding their way to draw from and so you end up with an absolute bucket load of the same kind of thing over and over again. I think this probably turns a lot of would be newer or continuing fans off.

It just seems like there are ultimately a lot fewer differing voices and influences at play now which leads to a shallowing of the waters in which everything proliferates.  I might not like it but it's probably the natural order of things. I doubt there is much can be done about it until a load of new, younger people who don't give a fuck about what I or any of the rest of us think step in and start making something radical.

[GEWALTMONOPOL]

There is also way less happening now in terms of differing styles, aesthetics, approaches, people etc cross pollinating on the same platforms.  Might have been a UK specific thing but a typical gig in, say, 2006 could have seen some art hippies, weirdo loner solo noise act, screaming destructive 2 min set nutter with absurd props and then sort of industrial thing all happening in the same night. It felt like it was all part of the same world and coming from similar places but was stylistically totally different per each act.  Now it seems like all of those things exist but in separate, dedicated scenes which is boring. Same goes for a lot of releases with sounds and imagery treading the same ground over and over again. I just don't think there is the same variety or pool of influences for a lot of newer artists finding their way to draw from and so you end up with an absolute bucket load of the same kind of thing over and over again. I think this probably turns a lot of would be newer or continuing fans off.

I remember that time well as I played at and visited a lot of those events. I also remember the snobbery, backbiting and bullshit that went on between different parties. Different strands of ideas or references if you like. It was hardly a supportive let it rip because anything goes underground movement. From my point of view there was also an underrepresentation of the styles and sounds that I am most interested in which is why when I put on my own events I took the decision to be very exclusive. One reason being to keep the above mentioned bullshit out of it and two to promote and support the things I have the most passion for. I have no regrets doing that. From my position it was necessary.

That said, with things becoming the way they have I agree that something went missing. Maybe the worst of the finger pointers and snobs could reconsider their actions of years ago? If they're still around. I doubt many of them are.

[JLIAT]

I think some perceptive illustrations have been given – what is missing – there is a video by the late Mark Fisher.. in which he presents the idea that  Music culture has become a sign of a pathology of time... the removal of a sense  of history newly ubiquitous waning of history... what is missing =

"The Bad News is the future has disappeared"

Unable to grasp the historical moment in which we live "we are trapped in the 2oth C" 21st C is the high speed internet delivery of the 2othC. (Sadly Fisher got out by killing himself)

Fisher talks of 'communicative capitalism', and i agree with a sentiment above that politics isn't that valid, in that itself has become victim to the loss of the future... but Baudrillard i think gets closer, he also points to the removal of the "drama of alienation" by communication technology... again something another post references...

"We no longer partake of the drama of alienation, but are in the ecstasy of communication. And this ecstasy is obscene.... not confined to sexuality, because today there is a pornography of information and communication, a pornography of circuits and networks, of functions and objects in their legibility, availability, regulation, forced signification, capacity to perform, connection, polyvalence, their free expression."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCgkLICTskQ

Well it might just be that a genre, noise in this case goes through some historical process, like Punk, at first radical, aliened, shocking, and new, then a 'classic' period and then commonplace... and this model seems to relate to many things, in art, but also in stuff like phones and fashion...

Or perhaps something 'bigger' - "The Bad News is the future has disappeared"

[Duncan]

There is also way less happening now in terms of differing styles, aesthetics, approaches, people etc cross pollinating on the same platforms.  Might have been a UK specific thing but a typical gig in, say, 2006 could have seen some art hippies, weirdo loner solo noise act, screaming destructive 2 min set nutter with absurd props and then sort of industrial thing all happening in the same night. It felt like it was all part of the same world and coming from similar places but was stylistically totally different per each act.  Now it seems like all of those things exist but in separate, dedicated scenes which is boring. Same goes for a lot of releases with sounds and imagery treading the same ground over and over again. I just don't think there is the same variety or pool of influences for a lot of newer artists finding their way to draw from and so you end up with an absolute bucket load of the same kind of thing over and over again. I think this probably turns a lot of would be newer or continuing fans off.

I remember that time well as I played at and visited a lot of those events. I also remember the snobbery, backbiting and bullshit that went on between different parties. Different strands of ideas or references if you like. It was hardly a supportive let it rip because anything goes underground movement. From my point of view there was also an underrepresentation of the styles and sounds that I am most interested in which is why when I put on my own events I took the decision to be very exclusive. One reason being to keep the above mentioned bullshit out of it and two to promote and support the things I have the most passion for. I have no regrets doing that. From my position it was necessary.

That said, with things becoming the way they have I agree that something went missing. Maybe the worst of the finger pointers and snobs could reconsider their actions of years ago? If they're still around. I doubt many of them are.

All of that may very well be the case; I wouldn't try to dispute it and I should imagine that this sort of dynamic exists/existed lurking below the surface appearances of any small scene. Internal disagreements, disputes and differences in character are probably another reason lots of things have become factionalised and people have turned their attentions elsewhere. It's a legitimate part of this conversation because it doesn't take many people moving onto something else to radically change what the 'scene' looks like, and in most cases it's fair enough that people refine and refocus what they want to see, hear and do. 

I think my point still stands though that for a period there was an awful lot more variation going on in the tastes and approaches you'd see happening in any one place.  For someone who was young and new to things at that time it was and still is an inspiring situation and an element of that seems absent today.

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

Missing parts... We may name it, but why? Noise/industrial music was/is and will be the biggest niche in music/art ever... this is a genre where is, probably, more artists than customers. This genre is dead as an art since many years. It won't change that purchasing many records monthly by some units, like me... it won't change that many (?) concerts, labels and other free-downoload pseudoartistic activities, it won't change that all boon of the Internet and other advantages of technological development. I don't care about that.... yes, I prefer older times.... Who doesn't prefer that? When I see still the next, the same covers with pornographic images, still the same titles and still the same names of less- or more known serial killers etc., and still the same sound/formats of noise, I vomit... Sorry, then, I prefer elder things.

[GEWALTMONOPOL]

I think there was also much more tolerance for subpar crap just because it had the benefit of being a name of the past aided by the endorsement of certain long standing movers and shakers of the scene. It reached a crescendo in 2012 when at least I felt there was a need to promote new and better skilled blood to counter act the nostalgia that had started to poison everything.

As the quote says from Theotherjohn, nostalgia is an illness.

The variations you talk of were badly harnessed in my opinion. At the time I'd be enjoying lots of different things at gigs but the main nub was the shitiness that came from a lot of different players. I was new to it too then, at least being active as in playing and going to gigs as regularly, and I entered that world with a sense of naivety thinking it would be an experience full of interesting people exchanging ideas, approaches, knowledge, experiences as well as having a laugh. Those people existed of course but having also observed quite the opposite enough times I more and more came away with the sense that the prevailing attitude of "us, them, maybe them too but certainly not those cunts over there" was bad for everyone and was going to have consequences in the long run. Going by your words the effects of that have since become reality.

Maybe we're all poorer for it, and I don't say this as an indictment as much as attempting to explain the observation I made long ago about the damage that was being inflicted and where it came from.

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

nostalgia is an illness.

I share this opinion.... but...

What you prefer, imperfect original or perfect copy? I prefer the first, so should I name myself as "nostalgic"?

[GEWALTMONOPOL]

Would you choose to go and see a drunk and ailing Boyd Rice "because its NON man" and it's something for the CV having seen him over the tight brute force that is Kevlar right now? That is what bothers me. Because it's like choosing to see a fat Elvis who couldn't sing two weeks before he died over the Elvis of 1956. That's what many people seem to prefer and although I have to accept it I'll never agree with it.

Preferring an old classic release from the past over a recent release by a current band that on a superficial level may be doing a similar or watered down version of the old classic is not the same thing. Listening to old music is never a problem. The example in the above paragraph is what is killing things.

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

Would you choose to go and see a drunk and ailing Boyd Rice "because its NON man" and it's something for the CV having seen him over the tight brute force that is Kevlar right now?  

Nowadays Boyd is a caricature, so probably I would prefer Kevlar though his "the tight brute force" is only, more or less a successful copy. Speaking about "imperfect original" I didn't mean old, fat "heroes" from the eighties who are using noise only as a tool  - time machine - back to their glory days today. I disrespect such attitude, probably in every case... I meant "imperfect original" as something (records, phenomenas) in the past.

[JLIAT]

It strikes me that this notion is very similar to modern day 'tribute bands' - or as Fisher points out bands like the Artic Monkeys, or Amy Winehouse, simlucra of previous genres.

So I think your analogy is wrong, seeing a fat Elvis in 1977 as opposed to the thin Elvis of 1956 is not the analogy of Kevlar / Boyd Rice.  Personally i'm not interested in tribute bands, their aesthetic seems to be how close they can be to the 'real thing', but never better?!

Boyd Rice at the outset was shocking, both the present BR and Kevlar possibly now lack this.

I think its a question of 'categories'. There was a phenomena which became known as Noise, (Or power electronics) the phenomena came first. Now if a 'band' decides to be noise (or PE) the process is the reverse. 'Noise' before it became categorised as such, (its category being 'what the fuck is this!) was unidentified. Now a noise band or its audience, seeks identity, as a noise band, where as the originators did not.

[GEWALTMONOPOL]

Would you choose to go and see a drunk and ailing Boyd Rice "because its NON man" and it's something for the CV having seen him over the tight brute force that is Kevlar right now?  

Nowadays Boyd is a caricature, so probably I would prefer Kevlar though his "the tight brute force" is only, more or less a successful copy. Speaking about "imperfect original" I didn't mean old, fat "heroes" from the eighties who are using noise only as a tool  - time machine - back to their glory days today. I disrespect such attitude, probably in every case... I meant "imperfect original" as something (records, phenomenas) in the past.

I knew what you meant and my post was about clarifying my position and not criticising yours. I think we are in agreement except over maybe Kevlar. To me they are a continuation of a tradition and a refining of it. Semantics perhaps.

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

I knew what you meant and my post was about clarifying my position and not criticising yours. I think we are in agreement except over maybe Kevlar. To me they are a continuation of a tradition and a refining of it. Semantics perhaps.

Even if you wanted to criticise my position I wouldn't see it as a problem for me. I like essential disputes very much. So, I am very interested in your sentence "They are a continuation of a tradition and a refining of it". In what, specifically, they are refining this tradition?

PS. I don't know how you and others, but I hate every tradition (especially in the art/music) and I am convinced that everyone should break every tradition in his life.

[GEWALTMONOPOL]

It strikes me that this notion is very similar to modern day 'tribute bands' - or as Fisher points out bands like the Artic Monkeys, or Amy Winehouse, simlucra of previous genres.

So I think your analogy is wrong, seeing a fat Elvis in 1977 as opposed to the thin Elvis of 1956 is not the analogy of Kevlar / Boyd Rice.  Personally i'm not interested in tribute bands, their aesthetic seems to be how close they can be to the 'real thing', but never better?!

Boyd Rice at the outset was shocking, both the present BR and Kevlar possibly now lack this.

I think its a question of 'categories'. There was a phenomena which became known as Noise, (Or power electronics) the phenomena came first. Now if a 'band' decides to be noise (or PE) the process is the reverse. 'Noise' before it became categorised as such, (its category being 'what the fuck is this!) was unidentified. Now a noise band or its audience, seeks identity, as a noise band, where as the originators did not.

I didn't use the example to claim that Kevlar are having the same impact as Elvis in 56. Clearly they aren't. My point is that as much as there were people who discarded Elvis when he was vital and missed the boat there are people who choose to do the same in our genre. I used Kevlar as an example but I could just as well have said Himukalt or Human Larvae.

I don't care about shocking. If that's what you think I and those I work with are about then that says more about you than us. But I know you as a guy who likes nothing you review so what you have to say on any current music is a moot point.