MISSING... But what?

Started by FreakAnimalFinland, June 23, 2020, 03:00:10 PM

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JLIAT

Quote from: GEWALTMONOPOL on June 24, 2020, 02:13:57 PM


I didn't use the example to claim that Kevlar are having the same impact as Elvis in 56. Clearly they aren't. My point is that as much as there were people who discarded Elvis when he was vital and missed the boat there are people who choose to do the same in our genre. I used Kevlar as an example but I could just as well have said Himukalt or Human Larvae.

I don't care about shocking. If that's what you think I and those I work with are about then that says more about you than us. But I know you as a guy who likes nothing you review so what you have to say on any current music is a moot point.

I think the notion of 'shocking' was originally in the shock of the new, was not the objective, merely a by-product. My point was the notion of 'genre', when it becomes generally accepted, is a sign that the originality of what became identified as a genre is over.

I'd rather not personalize this exchange but if you knew me, and my reviews you would see in the main i'm positive, though maybe someone (not me) who didn't like contemporary music couldn't say something useful or interesting maybe should be heard? Or for that matter is "liking" the only criteria for musical appreciation.

From Vomir...

NO ACT
NO POINT
NO RESULT
NO REMORSE
NO STRATEGY
NO COMPROMISE
NO DEVELOPMENT
NO RHYTHMIC JOY
NO EMO FEEDBACK
NO VISCERAL DRAMA
NO PC AESTHETICS
NO CLEAN ACOUSTICS
NO SOCIAL CONCERN
NO GENITALS POWER
NO PERSONAL INTERACTION

NO ENTERTAINMENT

MONOLITHIC FRONTAL SOUND
HARSH NOISE WALL








ImpulsyStetoskopu

Quote from: JLIAT on June 24, 2020, 02:48:14 PM

From Vomir...

NO ACT
NO POINT
NO RESULT
NO REMORSE
NO STRATEGY
NO COMPROMISE
NO DEVELOPMENT
NO RHYTHMIC JOY
NO EMO FEEDBACK
NO VISCERAL DRAMA
NO PC AESTHETICS
NO CLEAN ACOUSTICS
NO SOCIAL CONCERN
NO GENITALS POWER
NO PERSONAL INTERACTION

NO ENTERTAINMENT

MONOLITHIC FRONTAL SOUND
HARSH NOISE WALL



So, this (anti-) manifesto is adequate answer for main question from this post. Everything what Vomir wrote is true reason of collapse noise/industrial music.

A-Z

I think what's missing is lack of music. For every new album there's an older one that sounds alike, only better.
Maybe nowadays there's a new album every month that is better than, e.g., Second Annual Report. But there's no need to bother seeking those new albums out, because you already have Second Annual Report - along with decades worth of other fantastic industrial/noise/whatever records. Just pick one of those you've already got and enjoy. Which was not the case when records in question were initially produced. There was no Second Annual Report before Second Annual Report.
If today people stopped releasing music forever, we'd still have more records for any taste than one is able to listen through in a lifetime. New music has become redundant, and that's what makes it less interesting than older, non-redundant music.

Another thing that's missing for me personally - and I believe for many other people - is being young. Everything is new and exciting when you're 20. When you're 40 - the grass is just not as green, so you go to a Brighter Death Now show and instead of having crazy fun like many times before, you just get bored, get drunk and go home wondering what exactly was missing. And 40 is not even old by noise standards, seems more like modern noise listener's average age to me.

JLIAT

Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on June 24, 2020, 02:56:43 PM


So, this (anti-) manifesto is adequate answer for main question from this post. Everything what Vomir wrote is true reason of collapse noise/industrial music.

Not as far as i'm concerned, i gave two possible ideas why something is missing, one that genres naturally progress through stages until they ossify - become traditions, the other more radical that what is missing is 'The Future'.

I gave the Vomir quote simply to say that whilst aesthetics, enjoyment etc. are part of music, its not the whole story, i could have equally cited Cage.

HNW, like 4'33" and say Malevich's black squares pose not so much a problem but a 'limit'.


ImpulsyStetoskopu

Quote from: JLIAT on June 24, 2020, 03:15:46 PM
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on June 24, 2020, 02:56:43 PM


So, this (anti-) manifesto is adequate answer for main question from this post. Everything what Vomir wrote is true reason of collapse noise/industrial music.

Not as far as i'm concerned, i gave two possible ideas why something is missing, one that genres naturally progress through stages until they ossify - become traditions, the other more radical that what is missing is 'The Future'.

I gave the Vomir quote simply to say that whilst aesthetics, enjoyment etc. are part of music, its not the whole story, i could have equally cited Cage.

HNW, like 4'33" and say Malevich's black squares pose not so much a problem but a 'limit'.



I knew that you quoted Vomir in different context. Your two possible ideas why something missing are true but they are only descriptions of external phenomena, not mechanics of process which is much more complicated and touches crisis of our culture at all. This crisis was captured (I guess that in different meaning and other context) in (anti-) manifesto by Vomir.

collapsedhole

i have had this conversation with a friend somewhat recently about what is 'missing' nowadays with noise music in general, and we couldn't really put our finger on it either. been in touch with this guy for over a decade at least. both feel the same. i remember us both saying much of what has been said here already. but we boiled it down to what seems to be an all around "lack of effort". the casual, easy, and more business like effect the internet has had on doing things.

back in the times we were both glowingly reflecting upon.... the physical act of doing actual labor to get money, then travelling to the city to visit select shops one was only aware even existed by word of mouth, or hand-to-hand sharing of zines, catalogs.... to spend hours searching physical items. the reward and excitement when browsing non-alphabetized used cd/record section under blanket statement genre of 'industrial / experimental'... and then you find the merzbow disc. you have never heard it, you just know it is the not-music-at-all type of cd you're craving... what all the anticipation, preparation, the whole trip is for. its a name you've seen praised more then others, or just printed in more catalogs then others. no mp3 sampling beforehand to go on. you travel home and get in the right headspace to fully absorb what you are about to hear. you still question how the sounds were made. enthusiasm. wonder. it is a feeling i personally have totally lost in almost every aspect of life. but i know i still love noise, still seek to listen, still get a glimmer of that feeling. the recent discs by Heat Signature hit the mark... make me realize i still love noise.

i also remember speaking about the aspect of sound creation now. referencing a certain project, casually watching/listening their videos on whatever platform. sound could certainly be considered technically 'good', something i should like... but then i see it is all coming from one little box with several knobs, not some large chain of different effects boxes and strange looking objects connected by 20 patch cables. now you can make instant harsh noise out of one box, for around $150. no mystery, no endless trials to achieve the sounds you are seeking to create. no happy accidents or obtuse learning curve. purchase your premade noise device with paypal, its delivered, plug in, then upload to bandcamp or whatever. all sounds different, yet all the same. and all full of whatever is causing this apathetic feeling, all lacking the missing thing we are trying to identify. i've never used any site like that for anything. honestly felt disheartened when i contacted dilloway about recent nevari butchers tape and he said get it on bandcamp... i have since learned physical copies exist but having never used that site or app or whatever it is i instantly took it to mean mp3. now of course i have downloaded plenty of mp3s, but didnt even have fast internet until 2008 maybe? and i always bought what i truly enjoyed if it was affordable or accessible, going as far as to delete things i liked just to kick my ass into buying it. still can't wrap my head around the concept that people actually pay for mp3s, and that is the whole of the product they are receiving...

but anyway... if you even go the extra mile to produce a physical item anymore, then there is the artwork... very little art these days has the impact that browsing the old msbr records website had. like "whoa, this is what the record looks like?! a pile of melted plastic & metal!!" certainly matched the sounds, the anti-mainstream-in-every-way approach noise seemed to embody in all aspects back then. now noise appears to have its own mainstream i guess you could say. pictures sourced from endless hours of screen-time time-killing, not from magic moment in used bookshop or obscure anatomical/military textbook taken out of local library dumpster, or grandpas weird magazines...

"the past is the enemy of the future" is the full phrase from which i took the name for the ahlz tape. at the time it was reflecting on the more childlike enthusiasm for life in general i felt had slipped away from me. it was the sentiment of dedication. i've always fought change though have learned it is inevitable. still i'll fight it to the point of self destruction. you make your bed, you lie in it, and like it. captain goes down with his ship. 15 years later, i am applying the enemy of the future phrase to the very thing i was attempting to use as a force against change from occurring, and feeling like the future won the fight. was always destined to i guess...

perhaps this is just they way things go, with anything, once you're involved in it for 10, 20, 30+ years... perhaps it is just me who is now bored & boring, jaded to the point of a skeptical, nihilistic, beaten down jerk. perhaps, but i dont think so since so many others seem to feel similarly.


ImpulsyStetoskopu

Quote from: collapsedhole on June 24, 2020, 04:14:48 PM

perhaps this is just they way things go, with anything, once you're involved in it for 10, 20, 30+ years... perhaps it is just me who is now bored & boring, jaded to the point of a skeptical, nihilistic, beaten down jerk. perhaps, but i dont think so since so many others seem to feel similarly.


I could share everything what you wrote. Very nice! Yes, there are more than you or me, but it does change nothing.
One more digression - anyone knows group (three or more) of young (between 18-25) noisers/industrialsts, from one place who together and independently are doing something under one name, one sentence/motto/manifesto in real time, in real place, in real society? How things could be better if young, the most rebellious people prefer sitting before their laptops in their houses?

Balor/SS1535

Quote from: A-Z on June 24, 2020, 03:15:09 PM
Another thing that's missing for me personally - and I believe for many other people - is being young. Everything is new and exciting when you're 20. When you're 40 - the grass is just not as green, so you go to a Brighter Death Now show and instead of having crazy fun like many times before, you just get bored, get drunk and go home wondering what exactly was missing. And 40 is not even old by noise standards, seems more like modern noise listener's average age to me.

This is an interesting point, though I think that it brings some problems too.  I am young and like noise.  My experience getting to know this style of music has, as you said, been fun and exciting - lots of projects, albums, etc. to catch up with.  However, I am also entering something that has already-established figures and masters of the style.  I would not say that this is intimidating, but more that there is always a nagging feeling in the back of my head that "my noise will never be as great as that of a master."  In all likelihood, this is a problem on my part that will hopefully be solved with increased experience in making/listening to noise.

NaturalOrthodoxy

Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on June 24, 2020, 07:10:08 PM
I am young and like noise.  My experience getting to know this style of music has, as you said, been fun and exciting - lots of projects, albums, etc. to catch up with.  However, I am also entering something that has already-established figures and masters of the style. 

I've found this has been my biggest hindrance to originality. I'm 29 and my intro to noise, 5 years ago, was Pharmakon and Prurient, introduced to me via black metal. I mentioned this to a friend at work who turned out to be a bona-fide noise freak and put me onto the path of Filth & Violence, Genocide Organ, Mathausen Orchestra, MB, Con-Dom etc etc etc. The more I learned about the genre (all while establishing my own shitty project) the more I realised I was consciously plagiarizing a certain sound out of a desire to be "authentic".

It's only now that I'm slowing down my output, not only cos I have more grown up obligations, but because I've realised that I'm yet to find my own voice in the genre, my own subject matter even.

I can't speak to what is missing in previous generations, but I feel like if I could change anything about the current one, it would be a lack of self-scrutiny from some contemporary artists. Of course there are more people now into noise than ever before, and naturally the pool of lower-quality acts will have increased as it would with any genre, but with such a traceable lineage to look back upon there are no excuses to be simply a clone of a legendary artist. It does no harm to step back and ask what you actually have to offer before putting it out there.

I should clarify that none of the artists mentioned in the thread so far are the target of my criticism here. For example Kevlar, and for that matter the whole Unrest roster, more than justify their existence in today's 'scene'.

Bloated Slutbag

Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on June 24, 2020, 03:30:47 PM
Quote from: JLIAT on June 24, 2020, 03:15:46 PM
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on June 24, 2020, 02:56:43 PM


So, this (anti-) manifesto is adequate answer for main question from this post. Everything what Vomir wrote is true reason of collapse noise/industrial music.

Not as far as i'm concerned, i gave two possible ideas why something is missing, one that genres naturally progress through stages until they ossify - become traditions, the other more radical that what is missing is 'The Future'.

I gave the Vomir quote simply to say that whilst aesthetics, enjoyment etc. are part of music, its not the whole story, i could have equally cited Cage.

HNW, like 4'33" and say Malevich's black squares pose not so much a problem but a 'limit'.



I knew that you quoted Vomir in different context. Your two possible ideas why something missing are true but they are only descriptions of external phenomena, not mechanics of process which is much more complicated and touches crisis of our culture at all.

I may not be reading quite right (wouldn't be the first time!), but what I get here is the suggestion that the external critique does not- and cannot- account for individual emotional investment.

...

Eg

What would impel anyone to write something like-

NO ACT
NO POINT
NO RESULT
NO REMORSE
NO STRATEGY
NO COMPROMISE
NO DEVELOPMENT
NO RHYTHMIC JOY
NO EMO FEEDBACK
NO VISCERAL DRAMA
NO PC AESTHETICS
NO CLEAN ACOUSTICS
NO SOCIAL CONCERN
NO GENITALS POWER
NO PERSONAL INTERACTION

No visceral drama. No strategy. No social concern. The posting could read as very strategic socially concerned potentially visceral example of drama, with the expectation of considerable personal interaction. (No comment on the power of the genitals involved.)

...

If so I'd agree.
Someone weaker than you should beat you and brag
And take you for a drag

Balor/SS1535

Quote from: NaturalOrthodoxy on June 24, 2020, 07:50:15 PM
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on June 24, 2020, 07:10:08 PM
I am young and like noise.  My experience getting to know this style of music has, as you said, been fun and exciting - lots of projects, albums, etc. to catch up with.  However, I am also entering something that has already-established figures and masters of the style. 

I've found this has been my biggest hindrance to originality. I'm 29 and my intro to noise, 5 years ago, was Pharmakon and Prurient, introduced to me via black metal. I mentioned this to a friend at work who turned out to be a bona-fide noise freak and put me onto the path of Filth & Violence, Genocide Organ, Mathausen Orchestra, MB, Con-Dom etc etc etc. The more I learned about the genre (all while establishing my own shitty project) the more I realised I was consciously plagiarizing a certain sound out of a desire to be "authentic".

It's only now that I'm slowing down my output, not only cos I have more grown up obligations, but because I've realised that I'm yet to find my own voice in the genre, my own subject matter even.

I can't speak to what is missing in previous generations, but I feel like if I could change anything about the current one, it would be a lack of self-scrutiny from some contemporary artists. Of course there are more people now into noise than ever before, and naturally the pool of lower-quality acts will have increased as it would with any genre, but with such a traceable lineage to look back upon there are no excuses to be simply a clone of a legendary artist. It does no harm to step back and ask what you actually have to offer before putting it out there.

I should clarify that none of the artists mentioned in the thread so far are the target of my criticism here. For example Kevlar, and for that matter the whole Unrest roster, more than justify their existence in today's 'scene'.


I think that it might be important to have a period of imitation, though.  At least for me, discovering F&V was a like a flash of inspiration.  It made me discover what I want to do.  But just being a clone is not worthwhile in the long run - as you said, true authenticity is important.  Perhaps the internet has made it to easy to "release" music.  The first demo I did was done in probably a day, and then uploaded to Soundcloud on a whim  It was pretty bad from my current perspective (and no longer represents the direction I would like to go).  I know that if my only option for release was by producing a tape or cdr, I would never have done it.

JLIAT

#41
Unless the paradigm for noise is different now to other art forms in the past, and it might be, then there are many examples where the significance of a genre declines and those still within the genre become less significant to the point of mere repetition – which invalidates the genre or their use of the term for their work. A simple example would be someone now painting hay stakes and water lilies in the style of Monet. Their work would neither be considered 'Impressionist', or they to be impressionist artists. Though they may enjoy their practices and there is nothing wrong with that. " Sam MacKinley, also known as The Rita, considered the genre [HNW] as "the purification of the Japanese harsh noise scene into a more refined crunch, which crystallizes the tonal qualities of distortion in a slow moving minimalistic texture." " And the origins of Noise itself has a similar causal history. It was then in any post-genre, the taking of the current genre and producing something original from that. Either by extending it, "purification" as above, or by rejecting it, "I stopped playing music and went in search of an alternative."— Masami Akita. And you will find very many examples in the arts of this sort of process.

The only alternative to anyone now claiming to be doing the same thing as  Masami Akita and  Sam MacKinley have been identified as doing, "Noise" and "Harsh Noise Wall" respectively, is that this very paradigm no longer exists.

It is this latter idea which I (IMO) think is more tenable.


P.S.

I'm not sure what the "mechanics of process which is much more complicated" means or are, or if this is relates and if so how to "individual emotional investment."


Bloated Slutbag

Quote from: JLIAT on June 24, 2020, 08:18:08 PM
I'm not sure what the "mechanics of process which is much more complicated" means or are, or if this is relates and if so how to "individual emotional investment."

I'm not sure either. But it probably has to do with how easily one or another can be charted and graphed. It's not rocket science. It's more of a grey area where uncertainties prevail. This is not to say the graphical representations ought to be inched out. I am infinitely interested in the charts and graphs. But also suspect they are not capturing the whole.
Someone weaker than you should beat you and brag
And take you for a drag

Bloated Slutbag

Another way to read this is how the average Joe or Joette takes an intellectual re-presentation of his or her taste. I'd guess most would look in something akin to askance at a chart measuring their ability to properly assess the quality of, say, something entering their earhole.

I don't see this as anti-intellectual. I see it as suspicious of potential pseudo science. Yes, we all know e equals mc squared, whatever the fuck that means. But go into certain realms and you are playing with fire.

At least Freud knew how to write.
Someone weaker than you should beat you and brag
And take you for a drag

ImpulsyStetoskopu

#44
Quote from: JLIAT on June 24, 2020, 08:18:08 PM

I'm not sure what the "mechanics of process which is much more complicated" means or are, or if this is relates and if so how to "individual emotional investment."


My English is poor and I use too many so called Polish-English phrases. This is, probably, one of them and you must face with this my imperfection ;)  I have meant "Mechanics of process" as something like cause and effect relationships. I consider an art (and music of course) as a part of bigger process which is stimulated at the same time inside and outside of culture. I guess that every human idea (in art, religion, politics and so on - in culture at all) is ruined in so called reality, in ordinary life.  Question is, why "idea" is ruined? Why life kills an art? Why the  man prefers easy life than pain and transgression? Such questions we can multiply, but always answer will be the same... and the same are reasons why idea and reality aren't on the same level in our material existence.

Noise/industrial as the most extreme trend in music and one of the most radical in the art is a foreign and unwanted object in human life, in a society... in a culture. The natural process is crowding-out of unwanted things/pain from a body/psyche of human, and in the culture. Noise is a pain; noise is an idea of sound which is the closest in our mind, so is the most connected to TRUE. People don't accept True, so they are rejecting this art from their life. This process of crowding-out has another face... This process converts every foreign body/idea into much more accepted shape in human's perception. And I meant just this one "much more complicated mechanics - process" which is determinded by disability of human's mind and primitive needs, and so weak culture which is human's illusion.

What is very important here. Not every enthusiast of noise/industrial is able to resist to cultural crowding-out process or converting into more accepted shape... And this is the most pessimistic in this problem.