Tough Guy PE/Industrial

[Balor/SS1535]

Boys will be boys.

Haha.  I guess the question becomes whether the boys will actually live up to being boys?

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

Sorry, that's just not a global truth, that's your view.  Noise is just sound waves - it's like water, it's movement, and the "destructive" quality is a variable, and with volume knobs and a brain you can focus the sounds.

Nope. Noise, and this isn't only my opinion, isn't only sound waves.
"Exposure to noise is associated with several negative health outcomes. Depending on duration and level of exposure, noise may cause or increase the likelihood of hearing loss, high blood pressure, ischemic heart disease, sleep disturbances, injuries, and even decreased school performance. There are also causal relationships between noise and psychological effects such as annoyance, psychiatric disorders, and effects on psychosocial well-being.

Noise exposure has increasingly been identified as a public health issue, especially in an occupational setting, as demonstrated with the creation of NIOSH's Noise and Hearing Loss Prevention program. Noise has also proven to be an occupational hazard, as it is the most common work-related pollutant. Noise-induced hearing loss, when associated with noise exposure at the workplace is also called occupational hearing loss. (WIKIPEDIA - term NOISE)

Sorry that I pasted it but my English isn't good enough to describe more precisely what I want to write.
Of course you may listen to noise on low level.

Besides, the noise on music level connects to all (anty-)social behaviour, what CON-DOM's live is only a good example (and yes, Dando must know that his action can be source other reaction aggresive against him which he must accept only during his performance).

If you can imagine noise which is source of love and positive energy, it depends on you, you have right to that, we don't talking about exceptions here... I know Blackhouse where noise was used as tool to glorify a Christian God. The art / music isn't a science where (mostly) everything is cleared and proofed. We should seek tendentions, not exceptions.

[Zeno Marx]

I guess, to consider Silvum's post further, it depends if you're looking to a singular type music to satisfy your every need.  If you follow other music, or have been involved in other scenes, you might not come to industrial music for outward aggression.  It wouldn't have to be a conscious thing, either.  Get one thing here and another thing there.  I reckon that would be considered compartmentalization.  Or it could be as complex as growing up around constant aggression, so there is some familiarity and comfort in aggression, yet no desire to seek out face-to-face aggression.  To some, that would translate to weakness, while to others it isn't of any consequence at all.  If you like industrial music because it gets your testosterone raging, that's fine, but to think that is the ultimate utility or experience is a bit myopic.

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

If you like industrial music because it gets your testosterone raging, that's fine, but to think that is the ultimate utility or experience is a bit myopic.

~

My testosterone raging is useless here. I want to say that noise should be (because of its true, wild and chaotic nature) considered as something what must be connected to human's wild nature, or his discomfort, anti-cultural attitude. "Testosterone raging" is only one of the many examples which many of them may touch more rational and calm behaviour.

[Zeno Marx]

If you like industrial music because it gets your testosterone raging, that's fine, but to think that is the ultimate utility or experience is a bit myopic.

~

My testosterone raging is useless here. I want to say that noise should be (because of its true, wild and chaotic nature) considered as something what must be connected to human's wild nature, or his discomfort, anti-cultural attitude. "Testosterone raging" is only one of the many examples which many of them may touch more rational and calm behaviour.

should be and must be?  I think this is where your general argument falls apart.

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

I think this is where your general argument falls apart.

Yes, in the music or art nothing should be or must be. True. But the context of that is main topic here and Dando's attitude which was criticised here and why I decided to take part in this talk. I wanted to say that moral accusations aren't well here because of a nature of noise and unreasonable mix so called "artistic creation" to "ordinary life".

[Zeno Marx]

and/or:

Skaters, by their very nature, are urban guerillas.  They make everyday use of the useless artifacts of the technological burden and employ the handiwork of the government/corporate structure in a thousand ways that the original architects could never dream of.
-Craig Stecyk

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

No, noise is sound and sound is waves.  Learn physics.


Those are sounds made by machines NOT meant for humans as listening enjoyment

So decide, you are talking about physics and environmental sounds, or noise as an art? You used term noise in physics way first, not me.

You are being willfully obtuse and are engaging in the more structural definition of NOISE as an "opposite" of music (Yes we all know TNB manifesto or whatever nihilistic noise pose people try to take, but we are all sharing cool sounds we enjoy, that's it)..

Cool off...I haven't put any structural definition of NOISE as an "opposite" of music here or there. What do you use drugs?

because all sound means nothing, it only has meaning in relation to the observer.

This is only your sentence which is OK for me. Do one step more and think why there is TENDETION in the society/culture/music where noise (music) is based and used to express negative emotions, topics and behaviour?

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

but we are all sharing cool sounds we enjoy, that's it)..

Really? Did I write that somebody does it in different way somewhere?

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

You were so off base I had to say something, your general confusion and language barrier is making it clear I'm not bothering with you.

The fact that you don't grasp that you were quoting environmental defintions is perhaps a big issue.

Good luck, but you have removed yourself from the pool.

Yes, my English is poor, but if it is something hard to understand or not clear - maybe it or worth to ask for clearing? In any case, the most important should be topic here, not a man who is talking about that.

I don't understand the last your sentence. I can only suppose that somebody doesn't accept me or my views here. Cool idea for me. I am not to be part of a bigger piece here ... This isn't problem for me, really.

[Warfare Noise]

To my recollect, it was 20 years ago, the woman attacked at GBA was with a significant other, who watched the remainder of the set and stated that we "was gonna kick his ass" or something along those lines. That's your tough guy right there. Honestly, he should have though. I am a fan of Con-Dom's music, but that is behavior fitting of an ass kicking.

It's possible that Mike has gotten himself in identical situations I suppose, but seems unlikely. Otherwise, this incident happened at San Francisco Harsh Noise fest (2002-ish) booked by Tim and Bob, where a certain Canadian Noise Artist who works with metal was on the bill and had attended with his wife. Wife attacked Mike during "Sir Nigger" knocking him and his gear over, and then above mentioned Canadian waited around angrily to deal with Mike. Ultimately, nothing came of it. There are pictures floating around, but I was also there and remember it fondly.

re: Tough Guy noise - in my circle of friends this wasn't a pejorative 20 years ago and now it is. The difference being that the old "tough guy" stuff was complex, provocative, ambivalent, confusing, vague, conceptual, contradictory, idiosyncratic, etc (Whitehouse, S Jugend, Con Dom, MB, Genocide Organ, et al) while now there is an extremely high amount of just shallow, same-ish, on the nose, jock type "tough guy" PE. It's like a generation of artists that misunderstood their inspirations. No thanks.

This distinction betrays a subjective valuation of the culture that others will not share, and I am fine with that.

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

Noise, sound and music ARE only physics, but this board is a SPECIAL INTERESTS group of people who are drawn to sound and exploring it and using it for many reasons, and we can engage sounds that are non musical or textural, or are even recordings of dangerous noise, but the results are not explicitly equivalent to NOISE WARNING

Everything is only physics. Such information is useless for us. It is very obvious. I quoted sentences about noise as a sound in health matter only as addition to your terse "noise is only physics". So, you want to see noise only as physics, and me, noise isn't only physics. I see noise as a specific sound in context of art, in context of ethics, in context of society, law, healthy and culture etc.
People/composers has various reasons to create music based on the noise. It is obvious... Everyone of them creates it because of liking it, this activity, this kind of sound. Question is why they use such sound? Some of them use it only for funny play or experimenting; some of them - to express their emotions, and other - to express their more rational and intelectual relation to other people or surrounded world. I think that vast majority  of these composers from mentioned groups/sources of motivations uses noise to show ther more or less hidden dark passions in various aspects. Even if someone uses only abstract noise unwittingly, without basic knowledge about history of music etc, only for fun or joke. Why? Because every man lives in society and is stigmatised by culture. And every composer makes choice what and how does he/she want to do with his time/energy/concept/idea/work. You may recognise it (with using noise to create music) as an accident, but I would like to study it as wider and deeper process which isn't focus only on this one man who decided to use noise. Of course, you or other may think it is useless because nobody is able to check this mind and true inspirations. But for me true composer's inspirations/forces which pushed him to create noise music aren't important (maybe this is main reason why I lost interest in interviews to artists) because noise sound (consciously  or unconsciously created) has (anti-)cultural meaning. Even the abstract noise music which has got many comic/joke and funny moments is opposite to standard and cultural taste and traditional esthetics. If so, everything what is in opposition has got elements of rebellion and will not accept  in the mainstream culture. I don't want to write that my observations are only true experience. When I listen to SMELL & QUIM I have many funny moments but this smile isn't the same when I am laughing in other situations. Their irony packed in noise scenario isn't the same like others, in my opinion, their irony is dark and confrontational in destructive way.

[W.K.]

Solipsism.

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

I was discussing the material quality of sound, .

Sound is a vibration FROM things that exist, a similar expression of a wave-complexity density would be water and the waves visibly articulated by the layer where surface and air meet.  That is a "noise" of waves, and it does eat away at coastlines, but to reduce it to JUST destructive, would be very ignorant.  


I agree that there is a huge amount of GUYS that do it, to seem... TOUGH, but that's not an absolute.  Sound is a natural and neutral phenomena of waves in space.  

OK. First of all - do you know anything in music / art what is "an absolute"? I mentioned once or more that we should find tendency, not exceptions. Everything what man can know (especialy in the art) is based on tendency.

Besides my "an absolute" sentences concerned Dando's affair. I was surprised very much when people/composers don't understand such "performance attitude", violence and immoral situations in the industrial/noise/PE shows. I tried to remind what is evident goal in industrial music since 40 years. I don't demand every performer must be dangerous or worrisome.... I am shocked that people, which are part of that, don't understand and don't accept (I suppose) such obvious convention in the industrial music.. That's all.

Explain me, if you may, why sound of nature/field recordings, ambient, new age based on natural sound (so on the noise in your meaning) is used commonly in pop culture as relaxing and hushing music? Why "natural" sound like working of machines/engines and other urban waves, white noise etc. which is also used in noise music, industrial ambient etc. isn't used by people  to relaxing, calm down? Do you think it is problem of taste? Physics? Cultural manipulation? A natural human's defense reaction?

[FreakAnimalFinland]

Besides my "an absolute" sentences concerned Dando's affair. I was surprised very much when people/composers don't understand such "performance attitude", violence and immoral situations in the industrial/noise/PE shows. I tried to remind what is evident goal in industrial music since 40 years. I don't demand every performer must be dangerous or worrisome.... I am shocked that people, which are part of that, don't understand and don't accept (I suppose) such obvious convention in the industrial music.. That's all.

Well... if you look how people have been debating and arguing over what is "art" for ages. Mostly for last couple hundred years. With no ability to get into any real conclusion. One can just see that Con-Dom belongs to the lineage of avantgarde art and industrial. Where as many people are from what is simplifiedly said product of splintering pop culture. How the urge and motivation differs vastly. If you go to show, expecting to enjoy loud noise - it may be fulfilled also in Con-Dom set, yet he is not a "noise maker". He does not make or play noise and like actions are not... "gigs".