EU / rest of world noise trade

Started by FreakAnimalFinland, May 24, 2021, 03:52:32 PM

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totalblack

Quote from: host body on June 01, 2021, 08:16:20 PM
Quote from: impulse manslaughter on June 01, 2021, 07:20:53 PM
I just checked a site that calculates import taxes and it says it's 24 euros for what I ordered. Then I saw the site mentioned; "DHL income tax rates are unknown." So yeah, it seems they have there own rates which in my case is 2 times the normal rate.

how can a private company have their own tax rates?

They don't, they just charge administrative fees for paying the taxes on your behalf. The terminology varies but they generally cost 15-30eu depending on carrier. I frequently get bills for 30eu for import fees where the tax is around 10, and the fees are 20.

impulse manslaughter

Is this the same for all parcel companies or only DHL? Cause that's the only one mentioned on the Dutch calculation site I checked..

FreakAnimalFinland

Quote from: accidental on May 25, 2021, 09:55:11 AM
I don't believe this law in particular will have that much impact. Things has already been heading in this direction for years, this is just an extra push. Paperwork will be a hassle for the small business. Shipping costs more of an issue for the consumer than these laws.

It is true that shipping cost is probably the bigger problem for small business, as said in original posting:
QuoteI would not be surprised if outrageous postal prices combined with always more complex and expensive customs regulations will have severe impact on "international scene"?

One can already see it, that many discogs sellers are restricting where they sell. For example, USA only. Or not shipping outside Europe. If it would be merely issue of postage - I don't see it really matter since customer pays you the postage. Flat out refusing to send overseas, has to have some other things. I think there are now some US noise dealers, where their webstore doesn't allow european orders. At least been told. I fully understand that, and that labels would rather sell to distributor.

What original posting meant, "trade" was not meaning really the commercial trade understood as "the action of buying and selling goods", but the trade as artist or micro label spreading their stuff. For example, I do business or trades with many industrial labels who operate as company. Legit record labels. Yet also I do trades with basically anyone who has good noise tape done. I would prefer to get 5 copies of harsh noise tapes from new starting band, as opposed to PTV reissue cd. I have gut feeling that complexity of shipping may make that part of culture shrink significantly. For sure, the companies can operate, but the private persons, is different thing.

I got already few friends who used to put out stuff and they just conclude that its not worth it. Not only expensive, but also difficult. Even simply sending out package and if you don't have computer with printer and over here you are almost unable to send package. Live a bit away from central, and you got to go through major efforts to even send or pick up something. So yeah, if this is work, or obsession, of course one goes on. A lot of good artists and those starting out, would be probably turned off by complexity of paper work and such. At least I would be, hah.
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Urban Noise

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 05, 2021, 09:19:37 AM

What original posting meant, "trade" was not meaning really the commercial trade understood as "the action of buying and selling goods", but the trade as artist or micro label spreading their stuff. For example, I do business or trades with many industrial labels who operate as company. Legit record labels. Yet also I do trades with basically anyone who has good noise tape done. I would prefer to get 5 copies of harsh noise tapes from new starting band, as opposed to PTV reissue cd. I have gut feeling that complexity of shipping may make that part of culture shrink significantly. For sure, the companies can operate, but the private persons, is different thing.


It will affect big time on the smaller operations.
Yesterday I've received an e-mail from the Portuguese Postal Service informing about this subject and basically what they said was every package will pay VAT and Customs fees. Period. Everything will pay. Until now, if you're lucky it would pass without fees, now, everything will pay.
So, yeah, trading a couple of tapes with non-european labels/artists is expensive enough, adding on top of that VAT and the Fees, will make it impossible. Not to mention we'll need to provide invoices when in must cases doesn't exist, making it very difficult to clear anything from Customs.
Not a bright future on trading overseas.
New Approach Records
www.nghproductions.limitedrun.com
www.newapproachrecords.wordpress.com
www.nekrogoatheresyproductions.wordpress.com

JLIAT

I can understand the problems with import and export of existing material of physical media. That this is what some want rather than a digital equivalent which could be downloaded avoiding physical limitations on imports & exports.  Shipping and tax. An alternative might be for future 'physical releases' to be made using  similar methods to the likes of Amazon*, where physical hard copies of books are printed locally on demand. By that I mean distributors in various countries could produce locally cassette / CD and packaging from digital downloads. These if limited releases were required could be authenticated by the original owner. (for small runs this could be an email exchange**). Older material is by now as well as being material in its own right, has become 'collectors items', their originality and scarcity being part of the value, as such obviously they would still need physical transfer and resultant taxes, but as 'collectors items' this would be part of their 'value'.   

But if in future shipping and duties make small physical runs that could be distrusted internationally no longer viable, this might be an alternative?


Just a thought.

* I think in the past major labels manufactured releases in more than one country for distribution, notably in the USA different releases to the UK / Europe.


**Or the originator could personally sign inserts and limited edition numbering and send these by letter post to distributors...

Zeno Marx

#35
The first time I ran into this was with the Su19b demo.  They weren't the first, but they were my first.  They sent a master cassette and ten J-cards.  I dubbed and sold.  They then re-supplied J-cards as they sold out.  With digital means now available, if physical copies are in demand, the artist, or label, could send the sound files and images to regional distributors and let them create the physical artifacts.  DIYness was always about being smart with resources and using the available tools in crude manner.

Forget about the mainline and the fast lane; the edge of the glide is all that is of value. The true skater surveys all that is offered, takes all that is given, goes after the rest and leaves nothing to chance. In a society on hold and a planet on self-destruct, the only safe recourse is an insane approach...We're talking attitude. The ability to deal with a given set of predetermined circumstances and to extract what you want and discard the rest. Skaters by their very nature are urban guerillas; the future foragers of the present working out in a society dictated by principles of the past. The skater makes everyday use of the useless artifacts of the technological burden. The skating urban anarchist employs the handiwork of the government/ corporate structure in a thousand ways the original architects never dreamed of; sidewalks for walking, curbs for parking, streets for driving, pipes for liquids, sewers for refuse, etcetera, have all been reworked into a new social order. —John Smythe, a.k.a. Craig Stecyk, from the "Dogtown Chronicles," Skateboarder magazine, 1980.
"the overindulgent machines were their children"
I only buy vinyl, d00ds.

Theodore

I doubt this is the 'solution' . Most [?] labels nowdays dont even dub their copies themselves. Guys who run distributions usually also have their own labels. I bet they prefer to use their time and resources for their productions, if they are to dub something.

What i think is distro / friends / partners collaborations may help. Someone in US gathers stuff from several labels there and sends a large package to distro in EU. At least this way multiple fees would be avoided. - But really this new policy is the last nail on the coffin for personal purchases from outside EU, for me. And i guess for most of us too ...

Distros which are registered as legal companies arent affected, are they ? Dont know. But they pay the VAT back and their income taxes when the imported product is sold. So rules are probably different.
"ἀθάνατοι θνητοί, θνητοὶ ἀθάνατοι, ζῶντες τὸν ἐκείνων θάνατον, τὸν δὲ ἐκείνων βίον τεθνεῶτες"

Theodore

#37
I did some reading and IF things are exactly like described [and if i understood correctly] , then this change in rules might not be bad ! - Now, everything is subject to VAT. BUT if the VAT is paid during the check-out at the web-shop [ie: Discogs] then there isnt any additional fee for handling [15EUR] . And this is valid up to 150EUR value. - If VAT isnt pre-paid then you have to pay VAT+15EUR to Hellenic Post, unless the value is under 22EUR -then you pay only VAT- . - I didnt bother to read what couriers' policy is.

I ll go to post office to ask them, and probably i ll try an order through Discogs -it applies VAT at check-out- to see.

For any greek reading, info here : https://www.angroid.gr/android-tutorials/allages-apo-1i-ioylioy-kai-katargisi-tis-ateleias-agores-ektos-e-e-kai-teloneio-pos-tha-kano-agores-apo-kina-kai-agglia-posa-tha-pliroso-sto-teloneio
"ἀθάνατοι θνητοί, θνητοὶ ἀθάνατοι, ζῶντες τὸν ἐκείνων θάνατον, τὸν δὲ ἐκείνων βίον τεθνεῶτες"

absurdexposition

If the VAT is prepaid up front along with the order (from Discogs, example), then we don't have to worry about marking low values on packages anymore, yeah?
Primitive Isolation Tactics
Scream & Writhe distro and Absurd Exposition label
Montreal, QC
https://www.screamandwrithe.com

Urban Noise

Yes, because one thing needs to match the other. If someone is paying the VAT upfront, on discogs or on any other registered store, there is no need to pay VAT again on reception, it is already paid for the real value of the order.
Only for "not registered" or personal sales, the low value marking still works, besides that, not anymore.
New Approach Records
www.nghproductions.limitedrun.com
www.newapproachrecords.wordpress.com
www.nekrogoatheresyproductions.wordpress.com

Theodore

Quote from: absurdexposition on July 20, 2021, 12:29:18 AM
If the VAT is prepaid up front along with the order (from Discogs, example), then we don't have to worry about marking low values on packages anymore, yeah?

True. Actualy, i think seller will have to include that print / receipt that shows VAT is prepaid, value, everything. Or buyer will have to email it to customs. Has no meaning to hide true value anymore, you cant, you dont want to -if you have paid VAT- . Even for 2-3 tapes, i think it's better to pay the VAT in advance, than risk to be stopped and checked, then you are in danger to pay VAT+Fee ! - Now, this way, most packages will pass rapidly with the prepaid VAT form, so with less load, every other package will be checked more carefully, i guess. - For orders above 150EUR, may worth to not prepay and marking it lower. Dont know. - All these, in theory ... with a lot of IFs ! We ll see ...

PS: VAT is applied on shipping cost too.
"ἀθάνατοι θνητοί, θνητοὶ ἀθάνατοι, ζῶντες τὸν ἐκείνων θάνατον, τὸν δὲ ἐκείνων βίον τεθνεῶτες"

Soloman Tump

I am still waiting for discogs to come up with the IOSS number as I have a few records waiting to ship to Finland.  Buyer is happy to wait for a while to see what happens....

I am just about to post a record to Netherlands that the buyer and I decided to take off Discogs, we settled privately via email and I am sending as a gift.  Therefore, Discogs and the Dutch government are losing out.

urall

Quote from: Zeno Marx on June 10, 2021, 07:05:32 PM
The first time I ran into this was with the Su19b demo.  They weren't the first, but they were my first.  They sent a master cassette and ten J-cards.  I dubbed and sold.  They then re-supplied J-cards as they sold out.  With digital means now available, if physical copies are in demand, the artist, or label, could send the sound files and images to regional distributors and let them create the physical artifacts.  DIYness was always about being smart with resources and using the available tools in crude manner.

Hah funny, i had the same deal with Su19b for their demo doing my old distro. There were actually even more labels/bands doing this, sending me a bunch of covers and inlays and i dubbed them myself.

New Forces

So far I've continued to mark international shipments as gifts with low value, and no one has complained or had a problem.
New Forces
https://newforces.bigcartel.com

Kjostad
Breaking The Will
Form Hunter
Cryocene

Azoikum

A question which arose since those new EU custom tax laws started is royality copies for artists within the EU
releasing on non-EU labels. What are your experiences if you are residing in the EU and release overseas ?
Are there ways to avoid taxation of free artist copies ?