(serious) Paypal account suspension due to "offensive" material/titles

Started by deutscheasphalt, February 04, 2020, 02:57:31 PM

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FreakAnimalFinland

Only if amount of lost and delayed mail would not be so huge, haha....
I think in Europe, no problem due easiness of bank transfers.

In the end, situation may only call for better organized distribution network, where stuff could be found from your domestic distributor.
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MAGAZINE: http://www.special-interests.net
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Johann

Not sure how PayPal algorithm works, but wouldn't it be possible to just list the items in some way that doesn't allude to anything controversial, for example just calling Genocide Organ (GO)
and then providing detail in the descriptions (assuming PayPal never sees that)...

online prowler

I can recommend www.transferwise.com. I have used this platform in the past and it is very easy and non-disruptive. Fees are not large and if I recall correclty carried by clients. All users must create an account with the company  to utilize the services. Well worth a check out.

deutscheasphalt

Quote from: Johann on February 14, 2020, 09:03:50 AMNot sure how PayPal algorithm works, but wouldn't it be possible to just list the items in some way that doesn't allude to anything controversial, for example just calling Genocide Organ (GO)
It is possible to shorten, but it is censorship, which is why I'm opposed to it. However whether it is possible to "not allude to anything controversial" cannot be known, since paypal exclusively determines what's deemed "controversial".

Quote from: Johann on February 14, 2020, 09:03:50 AMand then providing detail in the descriptions (assuming PayPal never sees that)...
The description would most likely not be flagged, however after the item title was flagged through the transaction, paypal (manually) put in these terms into bigcartel search and flagged anything that came up incl. items which had terms in description only.

Quote from: online prowler on February 14, 2020, 12:24:49 PMwww.transferwise.com
looks like a good PP alternative for handling payment for large amounts of overseas distro items. For single orders I haven't had problems with Stripe up to this point.

NO PART OF IT

I don't feel like it was too long ago that I saw Skrewdriver for sale on discogs.  This banning of the sale of questionable items seems to be happening rather quickly to me. 
Discogs, Spotify, Ebay, Paypal, I've noticed a lot more bans recently, in some cases only for having track titles with the word "Genocide" in them, or some other apparent guilt by association. 

In the USA, there is a lot of anti-nazi sentiment, for sure, as the Atomwaffen continue to gain attention (It's not for me to say if they are gaining momentum or not, these kids are usually under 25).   
I wonder if there is anything more specific than simple anti-racist sentiment here.  Last time I checked, and whenever I have ever checked, the numbers for racist skinheads and so-called "neo-nazis" was less than 6000 countrywide.  It's not that I believe that they have an adequate census system for such things, but it's still a lot to get into a huff over.  Trump has simply made people feel comfortable in being more vocal about their little maligned ideas, and maybe that has something to do with the backlash.  I do wonder how they are applying their policies to adult items and such.  If I were in this situation, I'd probably look to those channels and sell my tapes as "fetish items".   
A caterpillar that goes around trying to rip the wings off of butterflies is not a more dominant caterpillar, just a caterpillar that is looking for a bigger caterpillar to crush him.  Some caterpillars are mad that they will never grow to be butterflies.
 
https://www.nopartofit.bandcamp.com

deutscheasphalt

Quote from: NO PART OF IT on February 27, 2020, 03:36:14 PMLast time I checked, and whenever I have ever checked, the numbers for racist skinheads and so-called "neo-nazis" was less than 6000 countrywide. 
Where - in Liechtenstein?

deutscheasphalt

Just a heads up: my paypal account has just been banned again for having a MO record for sale on Discogs (https://www.discogs.com/sell/item/1060195780)
* I received an email asking me to remove that record, the previously flagged items which I have since re-listed, and any paypal checkout buttons associated with these non-TOS products from my shop
* The email looks hand-written (titles / flagged words are uncapitalized, poorly worded)
* As you can see the record in question is not banned from discogs
* I have removed paypal as payment option from Discogs and bigcartel weeks ago and honestly thought I had already closed that account
* Thus there hasn't been an order over any of the flagged items since the last ban

Make of that what you will but it leads me to believe someone at paypal keeps monitoring my discogs account and shop site, sending me emails threatening to ban a paypal account that isn't even being used anymore.

online prowler

Hmm... Are you 100% the email is legit - from paypal - not from anyone posing as the platform? Very odd and uninformed to say the least that letter.

tiny_tove

Quote from: deutscheasphalt on February 05, 2020, 03:34:46 PM
I personally don't think this has anything to do with being jewish but honestly, what's the chain of argument here? Will someone approach paypal and be like "WHAT?! YoU aUtHoRiZeD a TrAnSaCtIoN for a STREICHER rEcOrrrrD? HOW DARE YOU?!"? Like who would hold them accountable for something like this? The whole ridiculousness of it leads me to believe that I got reported by some asspained troll.

yes it works like this. Same goes with sex related stuff. This is why most sex workers and porn providers are no longer accepting paypal but moved to alternative methods.
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deutscheasphalt

Quote from: online prowler on March 10, 2020, 03:03:47 PM
Hmm... Are you 100% the email is legit - from paypal - not from anyone posing as the platform? Very odd and uninformed to say the least that letter.
Yes it came from service@paypal.de and the ban also showed after I logged back into my account. The notification is still odd as fuck though.

Yrjö-Koskinen

Quote from: NO PART OF IT on February 27, 2020, 03:36:14 PM
I don't feel like it was too long ago that I saw Skrewdriver for sale on discogs.  This banning of the sale of questionable items seems to be happening rather quickly to me.  
Discogs, Spotify, Ebay, Paypal, I've noticed a lot more bans recently, in some cases only for having track titles with the word "Genocide" in them, or some other apparent guilt by association.  

In the USA, there is a lot of anti-nazi sentiment, for sure, as the Atomwaffen continue to gain attention (It's not for me to say if they are gaining momentum or not, these kids are usually under 25).  
I wonder if there is anything more specific than simple anti-racist sentiment here.  Last time I checked, and whenever I have ever checked, the numbers for racist skinheads and so-called "neo-nazis" was less than 6000 countrywide.  It's not that I believe that they have an adequate census system for such things, but it's still a lot to get into a huff over.  Trump has simply made people feel comfortable in being more vocal about their little maligned ideas, and maybe that has something to do with the backlash.  I do wonder how they are applying their policies to adult items and such.  If I were in this situation, I'd probably look to those channels and sell my tapes as "fetish items".  

Obviously this is a matter of controlling discourse in general. With or without the FBI goading edgy shitposters to plan bombings, the dangers of white nationalism are even more overstated than the dangers of Islamist terrorism in the US. Much like 9/11 was used to implement previously unthinkable intrusions into privacy and what you guys call civil rights, the Nazi scare is used to sell and legitimize an increase in corporate power over public debate and culture. Possibly it will also be used to motivate more direct government intervention (i.e. literal censorship). Once the 1st amendment becomes a relative and limited right, you can just go through with European style hate speech laws. Given the structure of the United States political system, it will then once again be possible to dictate what legitimate discourse is from board rooms.

I'm not saying that anyone will implement Chinese style censorship in the US. Some European states are edging towards just that, but it's still not even close. Even so, having major public platforms routinely banning ideas you don't want to spread, and the additional opportunity to prosecute your political enemies, is an excellent way to tip the scales if corporate media consensus isn't enough. This should be particularly obvious to the Left: if the state and tech capital is fine with banning CDrs printed in 50 copies and persecuting politically irrelevant dudes in SS uniforms, what the fuck do you think they will do when you bring out your important, efficient, socially transformative platform to reshape society and expropriate the oppressors?

Basically you've got the Nazi boogeyman to scare the ostensibly sensitive social revolutionaries that make up the Left and much of the "soft" professional class (not least the ACLU, who've come a long way from defending Ginsberg's pedo org), the Islamist terrorist boogeyman for border line retarded, mreeeerrica boomer yokels, and Russia/Vladimir Putin/the Russian bots for both of these camps. If you play things right you can implement just about any limitation on just about anybody once you've got the structures in place. For what it's worth, I think all of this will remain privatized for the time being. There are many negative things to say about Trump, but he won't touch the first amendment, and if Biden is elected and actually survives four years I doubt he'll do much about separating hate speech from free speech either. Unfortunately, with the ever dwindling power of established media, the people who call the shots (all of them, in case you're wondering of whom I speak) are going to have to come up with something to prevent the ole' CHANGE (understood as any redistribution of power, rather than any particular radical vision) from actually happening. Even though Islamists or Nazis obviously won't take over the US regardless of what happens, there may be other threats that need to be stopped in their tracks, and people with power and privilege will want tools to do so.

If this wasn't the case, you'd see none of this bullshit happening. The developments we've seen over the past twenty years in surveillance and private/public censorship are obviously detrimental to the credibility of Western corporations and governments alike, and they have done literally nothing to reduce "hate" or "fundamentalism" at all. If I can see that, so can the fuckers who create Terms of Service or define public policy.
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Thor

Quote from: Yrjö-Koskinen on March 12, 2020, 10:42:12 PM
Quote from: NO PART OF IT on February 27, 2020, 03:36:14 PM
I don't feel like it was too long ago that I saw Skrewdriver for sale on discogs.  This banning of the sale of questionable items seems to be happening rather quickly to me.  
Discogs, Spotify, Ebay, Paypal, I've noticed a lot more bans recently, in some cases only for having track titles with the word "Genocide" in them, or some other apparent guilt by association.  

In the USA, there is a lot of anti-nazi sentiment, for sure, as the Atomwaffen continue to gain attention (It's not for me to say if they are gaining momentum or not, these kids are usually under 25).  
I wonder if there is anything more specific than simple anti-racist sentiment here.  Last time I checked, and whenever I have ever checked, the numbers for racist skinheads and so-called "neo-nazis" was less than 6000 countrywide.  It's not that I believe that they have an adequate census system for such things, but it's still a lot to get into a huff over.  Trump has simply made people feel comfortable in being more vocal about their little maligned ideas, and maybe that has something to do with the backlash.  I do wonder how they are applying their policies to adult items and such.  If I were in this situation, I'd probably look to those channels and sell my tapes as "fetish items".  

Obviously this is a matter of controlling discourse in general. With or without the FBI goading edgy shitposters to plan bombings, the dangers of white nationalism are even more overstated than the dangers of Islamist terrorism in the US. Much like 9/11 was used to implement previously unthinkable intrusions into privacy and what you guys call civil rights, the Nazi scare is used to sell and legitimize an increase in corporate power over public debate and culture. Possibly it will also be used to motivate more direct government intervention (i.e. literal censorship). Once the 1st amendment becomes a relative and limited right, you can just go through with European style hate speech laws. Given the structure of the United States political system, it will then once again be possible to dictate what legitimate discourse is from board rooms.

I'm not saying that anyone will implement Chinese style censorship in the US. Some European states are edging towards just that, but it's still not even close. Even so, having major public platforms routinely banning ideas you don't want to spread, and the additional opportunity to prosecute your political enemies, is an excellent way to tip the scales if corporate media consensus isn't enough. This should be particularly obvious to the Left: if the state and tech capital is fine with banning CDrs printed in 50 copies and persecuting politically irrelevant dudes in SS uniforms, what the fuck do you think they will do when you bring out your important, efficient, socially transformative platform to reshape society and expropriate the oppressors?

Basically you've got the Nazi boogeyman to scare the ostensibly sensitive social revolutionaries that make up the Left and much of the "soft" professional class (not least the ACLU, who've come a long way from defending Ginsberg's pedo org), the Islamist terrorist boogeyman for border line retarded, mreeeerrica boomer yokels, and Russia/Vladimir Putin/the Russian bots for both of these camps. If you play things right you can implement just about any limitation on just about anybody once you've got the structures in place. For what it's worth, I think all of this will remain privatized for the time being. There are many negative things to say about Trump, but he won't touch the first amendment, and if Biden is elected and actually survives four years I doubt he'll do much about separating hate speech from free speech either. Unfortunately, with the ever dwindling power of established media, the people who call the shots (all of them, in case you're wondering of whom I speak) are going to have to come up with something to prevent the ole' CHANGE (understood as any redistribution of power, rather than any particular radical vision) from actually happening. Even though Islamists or Nazis obviously won't take over the US regardless of what happens, there may be other threats that need to be stopped in their tracks, and people with power and privilege will want tools to do so.

If this wasn't the case, you'd see none of this bullshit happening. The developments we've seen over the past twenty years in surveillance and private/public censorship are obviously detrimental to the credibility of Western corporations and governments alike, and they have done literally nothing to reduce "hate" or "fundamentalism" at all. If I can see that, so can the fuckers who create Terms of Service or define public policy.

What would corporate actors benefit from such ultra P.C. stand which you are suggesting? Having provided councel to multiple EU and international corperations I just don't see it. In my experience this is not something private corperations really care about. Your example of the actions taken by the US, following the 9/11, (which also include unprecendented violations of the laws of armed conflict such as pre-emptive self defense) are state interest matter.

And about the EU hate speech policy, the EU has actually been quite biased in favor of its own citizens, being much more lenient towards mockery of islam than christianity for example.

Balor/SS1535

Quote from: Thor on March 14, 2020, 12:28:14 AM
Quote from: Yrjö-Koskinen on March 12, 2020, 10:42:12 PM
Quote from: NO PART OF IT on February 27, 2020, 03:36:14 PM
I don't feel like it was too long ago that I saw Skrewdriver for sale on discogs.  This banning of the sale of questionable items seems to be happening rather quickly to me.  
Discogs, Spotify, Ebay, Paypal, I've noticed a lot more bans recently, in some cases only for having track titles with the word "Genocide" in them, or some other apparent guilt by association.  

In the USA, there is a lot of anti-nazi sentiment, for sure, as the Atomwaffen continue to gain attention (It's not for me to say if they are gaining momentum or not, these kids are usually under 25).  
I wonder if there is anything more specific than simple anti-racist sentiment here.  Last time I checked, and whenever I have ever checked, the numbers for racist skinheads and so-called "neo-nazis" was less than 6000 countrywide.  It's not that I believe that they have an adequate census system for such things, but it's still a lot to get into a huff over.  Trump has simply made people feel comfortable in being more vocal about their little maligned ideas, and maybe that has something to do with the backlash.  I do wonder how they are applying their policies to adult items and such.  If I were in this situation, I'd probably look to those channels and sell my tapes as "fetish items".  

Obviously this is a matter of controlling discourse in general. With or without the FBI goading edgy shitposters to plan bombings, the dangers of white nationalism are even more overstated than the dangers of Islamist terrorism in the US. Much like 9/11 was used to implement previously unthinkable intrusions into privacy and what you guys call civil rights, the Nazi scare is used to sell and legitimize an increase in corporate power over public debate and culture. Possibly it will also be used to motivate more direct government intervention (i.e. literal censorship). Once the 1st amendment becomes a relative and limited right, you can just go through with European style hate speech laws. Given the structure of the United States political system, it will then once again be possible to dictate what legitimate discourse is from board rooms.

I'm not saying that anyone will implement Chinese style censorship in the US. Some European states are edging towards just that, but it's still not even close. Even so, having major public platforms routinely banning ideas you don't want to spread, and the additional opportunity to prosecute your political enemies, is an excellent way to tip the scales if corporate media consensus isn't enough. This should be particularly obvious to the Left: if the state and tech capital is fine with banning CDrs printed in 50 copies and persecuting politically irrelevant dudes in SS uniforms, what the fuck do you think they will do when you bring out your important, efficient, socially transformative platform to reshape society and expropriate the oppressors?

Basically you've got the Nazi boogeyman to scare the ostensibly sensitive social revolutionaries that make up the Left and much of the "soft" professional class (not least the ACLU, who've come a long way from defending Ginsberg's pedo org), the Islamist terrorist boogeyman for border line retarded, mreeeerrica boomer yokels, and Russia/Vladimir Putin/the Russian bots for both of these camps. If you play things right you can implement just about any limitation on just about anybody once you've got the structures in place. For what it's worth, I think all of this will remain privatized for the time being. There are many negative things to say about Trump, but he won't touch the first amendment, and if Biden is elected and actually survives four years I doubt he'll do much about separating hate speech from free speech either. Unfortunately, with the ever dwindling power of established media, the people who call the shots (all of them, in case you're wondering of whom I speak) are going to have to come up with something to prevent the ole' CHANGE (understood as any redistribution of power, rather than any particular radical vision) from actually happening. Even though Islamists or Nazis obviously won't take over the US regardless of what happens, there may be other threats that need to be stopped in their tracks, and people with power and privilege will want tools to do so.

If this wasn't the case, you'd see none of this bullshit happening. The developments we've seen over the past twenty years in surveillance and private/public censorship are obviously detrimental to the credibility of Western corporations and governments alike, and they have done literally nothing to reduce "hate" or "fundamentalism" at all. If I can see that, so can the fuckers who create Terms of Service or define public policy.

What would corporate actors benefit from such ultra P.C. stand which you are suggesting?

The first thing that comes to mind for me would be that political correctness might help open up new markets.  If a company can make themselves appear to be supportive of the values that are in vogue and "correct," then many might be more likely to support them than if they simply remained neutral.  Plus, it makes their products seem trendy.

FreakAnimalFinland

I suppose many do interact with so called normal people. I have had discussions where even mentioning term "normal people" causes outrage. Which is odd - but also... normal? When you do interact with the normal people, that constitutes pretty big portion of population (therefore making it norm), you might be able to realize that most are not in favor of violent political extremism, bizarre grotesque sex, etc. They can be sickened or worried by mere thought of existence of such material. They may be repulsed by mere knowledge of such thing existing in the world.

When labels are trusting platforms that are mostly designed for the normal population, they are subjected to control measures to keep normal people happy to use them. If the moderators and decision makers are themselves relative normal folks, it's not like album cover with beheaded kids and mutilated whores would seems "acceptable", no matter how much one would claim it is... art? haha... Or that moderators would be able to take neutral political stand, without having their own views make bias.

About companies/governments not doing anything to reduce "hate" or "fundamentalism" at all, I would suspect that it is barely the role of companies in first place. Rather to appeal and to make the biggest groups of people happy and not-disturbed. It just probably extends to level that company does not want to be associated with such stuff. When people barely care of details or facts, I'm sure companies like paypal / facebook / etc just doesn't want headlines of "facebook supports largest neo-nazi organization", just because they did not delete advert of rally quick enough and it effects the feeling what people have towards such service.

I am strongly confident there is not any sort of evil cabal, plotting against underground culture. Or even cabal plotting for the new world order. Developments happen vastly unplanned, unconscious, without real purpose or meaning. You can easily see where certain cultural climate leads and progresses and what kind of things are being promoted and aided, but is the end result the actual intention or result of conscious aim... I doubt. What was designed to keep people not seeing and being disturbed by grotesque porno and ultraviolence may appear "censoring underground art", while it is just consequence.

I am sure there are reasons why something like vile noise or power electronics is best to keep in print media and physical releases. I don't think it does the genre any favors when there is flood of material that appears to have role similar as shitposting.
E-mail: fanimal +a+ cfprod,com
MAGAZINE: http://www.special-interests.net
LABEL / DISTRIBUTION: FREAK ANIMAL http://www.nhfastore.net

deutscheasphalt

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on March 14, 2020, 10:03:29 AMI'm sure companies like paypal / facebook / etc just doesn't want headlines of "facebook supports largest neo-nazi organization", just because they did not delete advert of rally quick enough and it effects the feeling what people have towards such service.
I agree with the capitalism consequence arguments made in the previous posts. Said headlines would lose those companies quite a lot of public image and thus money. They don't care about providing a safe space for minorities to reduce offense, but they care about money and keeping customers.
The free speech debate is kind of boring at this point. It almost seems like people who advocate for free speech are under the impression that one should be able to say whatever without facing the consequences. But that's not how this is realistically going to work in society. Speech is a form of action too and will affect the recipient in one way or another. Should that speech now result in offense or negative emotion, people will over time seek to reduce that cause of harm. This is of course only possible through power (numbers, radicalism) which eventually leads to putting hate speech laws in place. So this dynamic seems to be based on a certain amount of people that are actually harmed by certain speech and not the government actively seeking to reduce its people's liberties (as this is the opposite what the government is in place for).
When it comes to private companies however like paypal, twitter & co. - as much as those want to virtue signal - the only goal is to protect the shareholders.