"economy" of noise - tapes

[FreakAnimalFinland]

Am I missing the point here or is the whole thing a nostalgia trip in a market of increasingly diminishing returns?

Perhaps?

And, last, but not least - maybe a key is located in human/receiver, not in publisher minds? I mean, I consider that the first step should make a receiver, not publisher? Why does publisher/artist need create to receiver's mind, taste and enlightenment?

Well, in my mind, artists work for himself most of all. But publisher/distributors is for audience. Anyone who manufactures 100 tapes, isn't doing it "just for himself", but c. 100 other people?

maybe the question is also: what is a tape for you? is it just a format you prefer or is it loaded with some 'esoteric' value? is there a reason why a tape has a different profit margin than a cd when it is (sometimes) more expensive to produce? what is the reason a tape sells for 7 euro while a cd sells for 12?

In my humble opinion, tape isn't just cool novelty item, but actually with real purpose and many advantages, therefore it seems unfortunate that it no longer would be possible.

I may be one of very few people, who doesn't really like that much whole "pro-tape" thing taking over noise. It connects all to why tape and other formats have been priced different. It connects to hectic consumerism. It connects to tape as method of quick revenue, than long lasting cultural work or what it should be called. I guess someone already hinted towards it with "how tapes are sold nowadays" -remark.

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

Well, in my mind, artists work for himself most of all.

I suppose what you meant, but this case is more complicated. A work without receivers isn't art, it's nothing... There must be "communication", or, at least, any a little relation...

But publisher/distributors is for audience. Anyone who manufactures 100 tapes, isn't doing it "just for himself", but c. 100 other people?

Holy words.  Question is: who should hunt up: publishers vs. receivers, or receivers vs. publishers? Who should fine-tune to others? Receivers to publishers? Or publishers to receivers? I have noticed that in pop culture and in many noise/industrial circles is dominating this second option. In my opinion this is wrong way.

[New Forces]

Also, the effect that social media has had on how tapes are sold - which is very much a factor in the "economy of noise tapes" - is also crushingly apparent for reasons that are both good and bad.

This. You used to be able to list your new releases on one or two messages boards and sell them out relatively quickly. Now there is virtually no message board discussion. It's all on facebook and bandcamp and other social platforms which is a weird landscape to navigate. I haven't quite figured it out and don't particularly like it.

Also - regarding James' comment about the slow sales of his Collapsed Hole tapes, I don't think it's simply shipping price (or price generally). Things have just ebbed as far as general interest goes, especially compared to 10 years ago, and even more especially for harsh noise / pe / things in that vein. My US sales have gone down every year while my international sales have remained relatively steady, which makes no sense given how much international shipping costs have gone up.

[andy vomit]

Also, the effect that social media has had on how tapes are sold - which is very much a factor in the "economy of noise tapes" - is also crushingly apparent for reasons that are both good and bad.

This. You used to be able to list your new releases on one or two messages boards and sell them out relatively quickly. Now there is virtually no message board discussion. It's all on facebook and bandcamp and other social platforms which is a weird landscape to navigate. I haven't quite figured it out and don't particularly like it.

yup, i used to hit here, noisefanatics, pure stench and usually foreverdoomed or NWN or something like that and be at least half sold out of a batch in a week. 
doesn't work like that anymore.  i'm all over facebook but that's becoming an increasingly frustrating way to promote, because unless you want to throw down five bucks a day, no one's gonna see your shit.  and even if you do pay, which i have done, the extra people who see your post(s) are not always people who are actually interested in it.  the whole algorithm is fucked. 

i still promote in all of these places, and most things still sell fairly well, but it's not like it was just a few years ago.

i say we just go back to mailorder catalogs... 
   

[SiClark]

Personally I find mailing lists are a good option. I post about new releases on forums, I don't really use facebook much, I do post a little about releases on there but have no idea if it gets news out to many people. I have no idea about paying facebook money to make your posts show up more. As it's hard to keep track of everything personally use watch lists on certain artists I like on discogs which is pretty good.

I don't think psychical format is going to die anytime soon, not while old fucks are still around that prefer having the release in their hands.

I don't think too much about the amount of time I spend making releases as it's a passion, that is the reason I do it, I love working with artists I admire and love working in darker style that I don't get to do in my day job. Any money I do make from selling releases or distro stuff will go into next releases or to other labels buying their tapes or getting more stuff for my distro. I like the sort of recycling nature of that. I pay my bills from my day job not from the stuff I release.

[Zeno Marx]

What I have understood from original tape culture and even its usage within industrial scene, was that it was most of all affordable. Without doubt, it therefore includes economic decision of some sort. Like it or not.
It was meant as affordable alternative compared to publishing records. It was meant to reach people who couldn't afford records. It was method of having outlet for stuff that couldn't find even couple hundred people to be interested. But there was still passion to create as well as communicate. One way was to build network. The networks of labels, bands, distributors and people.

This is a great point (and one that didn't occur to me while reading the original post).  Mail art projects.  Punk labels willing to fill C-90s with as many of their releases as would fit for the same price as a single release.  Various cultures of music sending stacks of J-cards and a single master cassette to save costs with trading and at the distro level (I still think this is a very smart and under-used method of trading and exposure; one which I found most used by the Japanese and South Americans).

Convenience has a predictable consequence:  laziness.  It's common for people to harp on youtube/bandcamp/download as a lazy way of listening and experiencing.  Not directly related, but from the same generational aspect, pro-dubbed tapes that eliminate the possibility for resourcefulness and more affordable pricing has an element of laziness as well.  FreakAnimal's point strikes me as hinting at one of the main roots of DIY culture;  resourcefulness.  A lot of that came out of necessity, but it was also a fun, welcomed prod to be creative and resourceful.  You can't afford printing, so you create a style and aesthetic at the photocopy machine.  You can't afford pro-cassettes, so you re-use cassettes from various sources, including dumpstering behind the pro-dub manufacturing plant.  Packaging re-using junk.  Thrifted used cassette decks.  Some of these things are no longer possible, but many of them are.

It comes down to homogenizing of perspectives.  Convenience stores.  Walmart.  One-stop shopping.  The perspective that their is one way and not an infinite number of ways to arrive at the same place.  More labor, but also more creativity and use of materials to arrive at a smaller cost and price.  A mirror of the times, like when Craig Stecyk offered that great insight, "Skaters by their very nature are urban guerillas: they make everyday use of the useless artifacts of the technological burden, and employ the handiwork of the government/corporate structure in a thousand ways that the original architects could never dream of."  In 2016, we don't think like that.

[holy ghost]

Our (Canadian) dollar is so shit, plus the increase on postage in the past few years means (looking from the other side) I cannot afford to support all the artists I like. It's frustrating for the consumer not only related to the "gotta have those kvlt vinyl/tapes) but from a position of wanting to help out artists I think are doing great things cover costs. Ordering from specific labels? Forget it. I'm now making bulk orders through a few labels who do wholesale and getting a giant box every 2 months.

I wanted to order a tape from a US label, $8 for the tape plus $9 shipping works out to over $30 Canadian - I simply can't justify it any more. Thankfully I can order direct from The Rita so I always get my harsh fix....

[FreakAnimalFinland]

I suppose what you meant, but this case is more complicated. A work without receivers isn't art, it's nothing... There must be "communication", or, at least, any a little relation...

My assumption is that painting is still work of art, even if it never leaves painters studio? Same as noise created, is noise despite not for audience. I have tons of recordings which never have been meant for "audience". At least not as-it-is. It's creation has not happened in intent to communicate with audience. However, irrelevant in this discussion and never-ending topic in art history anyways...



Original opening post, was not meant as coherent opening. Just some random thoughts and hitting enter to get topic started. One shouldn't get stuck on words like "economy"  (= production, distribution, or trade, and consumption of goods and services by different agents in a given geographical location. Which could mean simply two guys trading noise tapes). Calculations of financial matters is not complaint that there is no profit margin, but hoping to indicate that I don't blame labels for asking price they do as this is what it can cost so they (or we) don't put 10,- to tape out of greed, but perhaps simply out of necessity. Money itself is not so crucial issue, as it has hardly ever been in "underground" and should be even less.

I'll see if I have time later on to expand comments more to direction what Zeno Marx and Impulsy Stetoskopu has pointed out.

[Zodiac]

Well, i do "pro tapes" only. Means, the tapes will get duplicated at a factory here in Germany and send to me. I do the inserts myself and as of the
second release, i did the print on tape body myself too. I like to do this. I like to invest time into doing it and i dont care that i actually loose money
over it. I am into it out of passion and i give a fuck about what people think about it. If you dont like my releases, if you dont like Staalwaart way
of things, just stay away. I have a website and email adress. That is my way of doing it. I dont need any social media networkd or other fancy shit.
If a edition of 50 copies i gone within a month then it is fine. If it takes a year it is fine too.

[SiClark]

Well, i do "pro tapes" only. Means, the tapes will get duplicated at a factory here in Germany and send to me. I do the inserts myself and as of the
second release, i did the print on tape body myself too. I like to do this. I like to invest time into doing it and i dont care that i actually loose money
over it. I am into it out of passion and i give a fuck about what people think about it. If you dont like my releases, if you dont like Staalwaart way
of things, just stay away. I have a website and email adress. That is my way of doing it. I dont need any social media networkd or other fancy shit.
If a edition of 50 copies i gone within a month then it is fine. If it takes a year it is fine too.

Agree with this. One question - how do you do the print on tape body? Is this special machine or transfer type thing?

[Zodiac]

Well, i do "pro tapes" only. Means, the tapes will get duplicated at a factory here in Germany and send to me. I do the inserts myself and as of the
second release, i did the print on tape body myself too. I like to do this. I like to invest time into doing it and i dont care that i actually loose money
over it. I am into it out of passion and i give a fuck about what people think about it. If you dont like my releases, if you dont like Staalwaart way
of things, just stay away. I have a website and email adress. That is my way of doing it. I dont need any social media networkd or other fancy shit.
If a edition of 50 copies i gone within a month then it is fine. If it takes a year it is fine too.

Agree with this. One question - how do you do the print on tape body? Is this special machine or transfer type thing?

For the 2nd release (POP-COC ,check new release section for a pic) i got two individual made stamps. One with the projects name (front) and
another one with the labels name (back). I did bought special stamp ink for plastic and a ink pad which can hold this type of ink. Then just stamp the
sides manually. The outcome looks simple but i like it. Because of the whole process and different ammount of ink each time (very, very slightly different) each one looks a bit different in terms of ink scatter. Great side effect.

[SiClark]

For the 2nd release (POP-COC ,check new release section for a pic) i got two individual made stamps. One with the projects name (front) and
another one with the labels name (back). I did bought special stamp ink for plastic and a ink pad which can hold this type of ink. Then just stamp the
sides manually. The outcome looks simple but i like it. Because of the whole process and different ammount of ink each time (very, very slightly different) each one looks a bit different in terms of ink scatter. Great side effect.

Thanks for the information.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

Some friend ordered from rubberstamp company custom made logo stamp, which had some sort of alcohol based ink inside. Like mentioned above, this type of ink is suitable for stamping plastic. Normal water based ink will never dry on plastic.
I think he mentioned that it was around 30usd and ink was supposed to last few hundred thousand stampings..

Convenience has a predictable consequence:  laziness.  It's common for people to harp on youtube/bandcamp/download as a lazy way of listening and experiencing.  Not directly related, but from the same generational aspect, pro-dubbed tapes that eliminate the possibility for resourcefulness and more affordable pricing has an element of laziness as well.  FreakAnimal's point strikes me as hinting at one of the main roots of DIY culture;  resourcefulness. 

It comes down to homogenizing of perspectives.  Convenience stores.  Walmart.  One-stop shopping.  The perspective that their is one way and not an infinite number of ways to arrive at the same place.  More labor, but also more creativity and use of materials to arrive at a smaller cost and price.  A mirror of the times, like when Craig Stecyk offered that great insight, "Skaters by their very nature are urban guerillas: they make everyday use of the useless artifacts of the technological burden, and employ the handiwork of the government/corporate structure in a thousand ways that the original architects could never dream of."  In 2016, we don't think like that.

I should also mention that I do appreciate also other ways of handling tapes than cheap, available and long term presence, even if that is something I'd prefer.

Sometimes it is valid point to make exclusive, limited, special. And of course pricey if it requires that to make it happen. Sometimes it is valid to make a batch and move on. Not pretend as if everything is here to stay forever, but something to capture the "heat of the moment", so to say, hah...

But myself, and so many friends I know, are quite annoying that even if being pretty much fanatical followers, still, stuff you really wait for, just comes and goes in blink of an eye. Impossible to get for tolerable price.
I can't understand bands who'd have like X amount of "followers" and then they make release on label what makes half of that amount or less.

Perhaps label who puts out items constantly, and every time you ask, items are sold out. Tapes you had to know to exist, before it existed, so you can reserve it in advance. I know one doesn't need to own everything and labels can't be expected to be able to inform everybody, but still there are certain hints what makes some operations remind more of modern consumer manipulation gimmicks, rather than the industrial counter culture sort of thing...

Then as other alternative, you got something like RRR selling Nurse With Wound tapes. You ask Ron, who is pretty much retired man, and he replies in day, and got the tape still in stock for 6usd, what he has had in stock
for 25 years.

I fully realize, everybody does what they can. At least seemingly. However, I doubt many consider options what they are. They are simply stuck on idea that has dominated for several years now. Small batch, quick cash, no trade, no communication, pay-now-buttons here and fuck off to any "networking", tapes disappear as fast as they emerged...? 30% of them listed on discogs with nice little extra fee.

If that's only way one gets it done, then fine, but especially for those who have options, I'd always urge to consider other ways that might be worth it. What I think many people appreciated with tapes, was personality, first-hand involvement, some sort of uniqueness, etc. The more tapes transform to be just the exact same cello-wrapped commodity, it gets quite far from those qualities.

[Zeno Marx]

Agree with this. One question - how do you do the print on tape body? Is this special machine or transfer type thing?

You might be able to make something as simple as a potato stamp and use oil-based house paint or white-out (test that it doesn't just flake off).  There must be hundreds of ways to create a stamp.  I also remember there being some kind of cork tile that you could carve with X-acto tools to make your own prints, like wood printing.  I can't remember what that material or process is called.  An art supply, or craft store, staff has to be an endless resource of information.

[manuelM]

Personally, at this point, investment and revenue is something I don't want to be concerned anymore, that's why I am only just releasing my own projects on my own label in cheap diy ways (bulk tapes and xeroxed covers), and I am not selling anything, rather trades or gifts... I think economical issues are usually a heavy distraction from the most important thing for me, which is creating the objects and focusing on making my own shit in my own way... without pretentiousness, just looking for freedom of action... no time wasted on promotion as I don't need to get any revenue, I do this for passion so I invest what I consider it is worth and I am just glad to get my stuff heard by a little network of friends... that's enough for me... I know that my shit being not available for everyone will cause no harm or frustration hehe ;) anyway anyone interested in it may ask for it personally, I have no problems for that... I hope it doesn't seem selfish by my side, I am just trying to be practical with my limited available spare time...

In the other hand, I keep buying records from labels and distributors around and try to get batchs of stuff to get advantage on postage costs and not a bleeding for a single tape overseas, I think that's the formula, I really believe in physical stuff and I really hope it doesn't disappear... I believe the main role here who is responsible in keeping it alive is the buyer/consumer, only if that much people stopped complaining about high prices and noticed that if you like this scene and you want it to last you must be a support... and them understanding that this world system nowadays is trying to lead the sheeps to their interests, to the mainstream markets...
Please, do not stop buying records/tapes and supporting labels/artist this way just for the chance of having a lot of noise online... online industrial culture is has an awful aroma for me... sorry old cunt here, it is true... but the essence I appreciate is not on internet or in complaining...