MISSING... But what?

[WCN]

depend on it for keeping up to date with a lot of releases coming out.

Yes, that's the dilemma, and why I also lurk on IG occasionally in order to not miss important things. It's a vicious cycle, but it doesn't justify the shift, it's just accepting and moving with the shift.

[WCN]

are we always supposed to settle for lowest common denominator options?

That's exactly my point, what I think we all should ask ourselves, not just in the context of the noise scene, but in our personal lives as well.

There are fine individuals who align themselves with the underground who use social media.

Absolutely, and that's what I find such a shame.

[JLIAT]

....  I feel this is just the tip of the iceberg  ...????

Seems maybe? Frans was beefing about Red Bull & its sponsorship, ( Merzbow, Prurient, Pharmakon and more.) -a unilever company
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unilever#Environmental_record...

I'd genuinely be interested in thoughts on this - is using Facebook / IG  the tip, and one response is to embrace it, accelerationism...

[WCN]

Sorry I don't really know how to do this so I'm replying 3 times in a row:

Seemed like people here weren't interested and it felt like a waste of time.

I don't think this specific forum should be the be-all-end-all way to share and discuss information, but I think we have options and need to be purposeful and decisive in designing "the kind of world we want to live in" so to speak, and rejecting that shit should be on the top of the list.

[NerveGas]

are we always supposed to settle for lowest common denominator options?

That's exactly my point, what I think we all should ask ourselves, not just in the context of the noise scene, but in our personal lives as well.

There are fine individuals who align themselves with the underground who use social media.

Absolutely, and that's what I find such a shame.

I agree. In my day to day experiences I have found that I have an overwhelmingly negative view when it comes to social media compared to most other people, and I find it quite bizarre (perhaps not surprising) that it seems to have been embraced with open arms in underground circles. Perhaps what is even more frustrating for me is the lack of self reflection most people have in regards to their usage of such platforms. Seems like the prevailing attitude is just that this is the point that we have arrived at technologically/socially and it's to be accepted and embraced consciously or unconsciously. I can't control how others spend their time, but I have little interest in flooding my phone that I already spend enough time on with curated photographs of individuals trying to construct a persona or impress others. I will always take artists and musicians more seriously who find other methods to promote their work or simply let it speak for itself through it's quality and their dedication.

[holy ghost]

depend on it for keeping up to date with a lot of releases coming out.

Yes, that's the dilemma, and why I also lurk on IG occasionally in order to not miss important things. It's a vicious cycle, but it doesn't justify the shift, it's just accepting and moving with the shift.

I totally agree with you - while I find IG to be less "toxic" than Facebook or Twitter - generally I prefer seeing pictures of noise records and dogs and BBQ as opposed to endless political ranting and Russian bots - it's not ideal. However I am probably as reliant on email blasts/updates than Instagram for quickly buying super limited tapes that are going out of print in 15 minutes. As I think most people are saying "it is what it is".

I have also had to set reminders on my phone because I know some super hot tape is going to drop at a certain time on an Instagram page and there will be only 30 copies available. I don't love this. I'd love to say it's beneath me but sometimes that harsh tape is the only thing that will spark joy.....

[JLIAT]

are we always supposed to settle for lowest common denominator options?

That's exactly my point, what I think we all should ask ourselves, not just in the context of the noise scene, but in our personal lives as well.

There are fine individuals who align themselves with the underground who use social media.

Absolutely, and that's what I find such a shame.

I agree. In my day to day experiences I have found that I have an overwhelmingly negative view when it comes to social media compared to most other people, and I find it quite bizarre (perhaps not surprising) that it seems to have been embraced with open arms in underground circles. Perhaps what is even more frustrating for me is the lack of self reflection most people have in regards to their usage of such platforms. Seems like the prevailing attitude is just that this is the point that we have arrived at technologically/socially and it's to be accepted and embraced consciously or unconsciously. I can't control how others spend their time, but I have little interest in flooding my phone that I already spend enough time on with curated photographs of individuals trying to construct a persona or impress others. I will always take artists and musicians more seriously who find other methods to promote their work or simply let it speak for itself through it's quality and their dedication.

Can i just add that years ago releases for review tended to come with promo material, (back then called a press release) which was useful. This segued to Blogs, but now seems to give FB links. Which is OK if one is on facebook.  And many Blogs seem often years out of date. - Might it be that FB's addictive power is that its seems to be a happening place? or is it a happening place?

[NerveGas]

are we always supposed to settle for lowest common denominator options?

That's exactly my point, what I think we all should ask ourselves, not just in the context of the noise scene, but in our personal lives as well.

There are fine individuals who align themselves with the underground who use social media.

Absolutely, and that's what I find such a shame.

I agree. In my day to day experiences I have found that I have an overwhelmingly negative view when it comes to social media compared to most other people, and I find it quite bizarre (perhaps not surprising) that it seems to have been embraced with open arms in underground circles. Perhaps what is even more frustrating for me is the lack of self reflection most people have in regards to their usage of such platforms. Seems like the prevailing attitude is just that this is the point that we have arrived at technologically/socially and it's to be accepted and embraced consciously or unconsciously. I can't control how others spend their time, but I have little interest in flooding my phone that I already spend enough time on with curated photographs of individuals trying to construct a persona or impress others. I will always take artists and musicians more seriously who find other methods to promote their work or simply let it speak for itself through it's quality and their dedication.

Can i just add that years ago releases for review tended to come with promo material, (back then called a press release) which was useful. This segued to Blogs, but now seems to give FB links. Which is OK if one is on facebook.  And many Blogs seem often years out of date. - Might it be that FB's addictive power is that its seems to be a happening place? or is it a happening place?

I honestly cannot understand the appeal of something like Facebook. And perhaps, to make a slightly different point, I find it ridiculous that the decline in zine/print media and the rise in internet usage/social media are just shrugged off. Where are all of those blog reviews and download links now? Expired or neglected in the dark corners of the internet. What cultural staying power does a Facebook update have? Yet there are many who still hold onto and "cherish" zines as they would records or tapes or CDs. Punk, metal, noise, etc. They have all gone this unfortunate route.

[holy ghost]

I honestly cannot understand the appeal of something like Facebook.

I think we can all agree no one actually "likes" using Facebook at this point in time - specifically for UG people not like, my mom who fucking lives on facebook. But labels are forced to do it to move product, promoters are forced to do it to advertise shows. They've created it to be indispensable. I deleted mine around 2007-ish and it wasn't until I reactivated it in 2016-ish to keep up with shows and such as have a "page" for my band. Could I live without it? Sure, but I'd like to know the set times of that noisecore show that might happen next year so I can decide if I want to stay up until one AM on a Tuesday night.

I mean we all got used to PayPal and all kinds of other technological marvels to make our lives easier and it's pretty obvious those are also just as problematic as Facebook or Instagram.....

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

But labels are forced to do it to move product, promoters are forced to do it to advertise shows. They've created it to be indispensable.

Are you sure that these labels are forced? Are you sure that an independent circles in industrial/noise music especialy, which are radical force against mainstream ways of culture, should adopt that mainstream's tools and methods in creating products and distrybuting them to consumers?

[Balor/SS1535]

But labels are forced to do it to move product, promoters are forced to do it to advertise shows. They've created it to be indispensable.

Are you sure that these labels are forced? Are you sure that an independent circles in industrial/noise music especialy, which are radical force against mainstream ways of culture, should adopt that mainstream's tools and methods in creating products and distrybuting them to consumers?

I think it depends in large part on the amount that you would like to sell.  Truly underground labels can work, but you almost certainly will suffer financially as a result.  I'm not saying that you have to make all of your decisions based on money, but it is a consideration nonetheless - even if you only want money to fund new releases.

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

I think it depends in large part on the amount that you would like to sell.  Truly underground labels can work, but you almost certainly will suffer financially as a result.  I'm not saying that you have to make all of your decisions based on money, but it is a consideration nonetheless - even if you only want money to fund new releases.

My question concerned. mainly, to consider what kind of mission should exist in an independent circle. If publishers, artists are determinded on "suffer financially", any profits (will at least to cover costs of productions, and so on), should we consider themselves as "independent"? Only because of releasing music from out of mainstream? Ok, fuck a word "independent", what should be a main mission for such publisher?
Not without reason I ask about that. I am sured a source of "missing..." comes from this point among others.

[WCN]

But labels are forced to do it to move product

This is not true at all. First of all, obviously no one is forced to use any of this stuff, but hyperbole aside, labels can function very well and sell plenty of stuff without it. Perhaps not "as much" or "as quickly" but that's also unsubstantiated. They might however be forced to sell their stuff based on other criteria than the fastfood mentality promoted by instagram.

There's no denying that these platforms make everything more convenient - from finding out about start times of shows, available new releases, to advertising to millions of people. They're also designed by very brilliant psychologists to addict a planet of lonely people by exploiting their primal psychological desires and insecurities with the primary goal of selling them shit. I get that pretty much all of us, myself included, fall victim to this on one level or another, but we should really resent this much more than we do, and when it comes to communicating/sharing/advertising something that transcends such banality (NOISE), I really wish it were rejected on a much wider scale and not just taken as "it is what it is." It's really not that hard, noise and life has gone on without instagram for a long time, and continues to do so.

[W.K.]

I will however make the blunt statement that I think the fact that Instagram has taken over as such a major platform for communication and advertisement in the noise scene simply SHIT. This comes from my personal belief that Instagram (other social media platforms as well, but IG is the worst) are in general SHIT for the human being - on an individual psychological level and on a societal level. The superficiality, the narcissism, the vanity, the dumbing down of language inherently promoted by the platform, not to mention the corporate parasitism of your personal information... I find it simply sad and absurd that the majority of the world has accepted and embraced it and literally enslaved themselves with it (I'm not holier than thou - I've used these platforms in the past, and still do to some extent).

RANT over for now - I can and should be more specific about a lot of what I'm trying to say here, as I feel this is just the tip of the iceberg but please, tell me I'm not buggin????

Yep, totally true. It's almost funny we are accepting a corporate platform that dictates how we communicate and behave with each other, yet many of us, yet many of these guys on Instagram sees us as a form of subversive culture. It doesn't make sense. How can you be subversive or underground and also be in front of the public mainstream? However, it being so inclusive also means not being on the platform is excluding a major part of your (potential) listeners, as there are very few (written) publications available, and even then it only speaks to a small portion of the crowd. And aren't we excluding all the young ones if we exclude the modern social platforms?

I really wish it were rejected on a much wider scale and not just taken as "it is what it is." It's really not that hard, noise and life has gone on without instagram for a long time, and continues to do so.

Yes it is hard, because you will lose listeners and it's so damn easy to communicate with people you've never heard off, meaning there is very little 'legwork' to do and everything moves pretty easy if you gain traction. But even before that, I don't think most even consider questioning usage of Instagram, but only see it as the next internet platform.

I also think this discussion very much so hold up for the Discogs platform, although on a different level. If every record ever released is in plain sight for everybody,and 99% can be bought on the same platform with a few mouse clicks, it means there are no obscure records anymore, or hardly so. A major loss for the mystification of weird recordings. A damn shame. But it's also damn handy to use so no one is going to attack it. What are you gaining except for a few internet cheers?

But yeah, it's very good to be critical, but if only a few are listening you are only making it hard for yourself, moral ramifications aside.

[holy ghost]

This is not true at all. First of all, obviously no one is forced to use any of this stuff, but hyperbole aside,

Yes, "forced" was not intended to be taken literally. But I think for a lot of labels who may not have the "social capital" to move product quickly or labels that have pressed vinyl records for the first time that they spent an arm and a leg on they may feel like they have to do it just to keep themselves afloat. There seems to be such an oversaturation of product out there things may get lost in a wash of hype, forum messages and email. I don't think it's unreasonable to say there's 10x the amount of projects (and by default, physical media) out there that there were decade ago. Maybe I'm wrong and using these platforms just makes people hyper aware of everything out there?

This all being said I don't use Facebook to hype a product so I see both sides of this and I'm certainly not championing it. I feel the same way about PayPal fees, bandcamp fees etc which are less "social" but certainly just as odious, if not more? But PayPal has made itself so indispensable you can't even imagine life without it. It just doesn't have that sting of shame that Facebook does.

I think most of us here are old enough to remember "the good old days" of sending money orders and hidden cash in the mail (or even - calling Relapse and them taking your order over the phone) - it sucked large and the modern conveniences have made things so much less of a challenge.