MISSING... But what?

[BlackSunAndSteel]

I agree that a good record/etc. with shit artwork is preferable to a horrible sounding one with solid artwork, but it'll never be not dispiriting to see/hear the former combination, I don't think it makes the argument that visuals/sounds are equally important any less valid either.

It comes down to what you prefer. To me it's not an argument at all but a mere opinion. If it's an argument for you though, you just contradicted yourself there: if you think a good music / shitty artwork combination is preferable to shitty music / good artwork, then it follows necessarily that they're not equally important. They aren't for me. If they are for you, that's fine and I have no way or desire to discredit your opinion.

Noise music without any context given to the listener by song titles, artwork, lyrics/vocals (PE), etc. is comparable to an abstract painting. Without looking at the title of the painting, the viewer will contextualize the piece according to their own perception and attached emotions. In this way, we can never understand the piece, but simultaneously cannot fail to understand it.

[JLIAT]

Noise music without any context given to the listener by song titles, artwork, lyrics/vocals (PE), etc. is comparable to an abstract painting. Without looking at the title of the painting, the viewer will contextualize the piece according to their own perception and attached emotions. In this way, we can never understand the piece, but simultaneously cannot fail to understand it.

I agree it's comparable to an abstract (non-representational) painting, and Vomir uses the familiar fine art title "Untitled".  But if we look at the title and packaging of Merzbow's Bloody sea, i dont think it would be legitimate to think the sound work is in anyway expressing that, as its not significantly different to other of his works. Likewise The Rita's 'Skate' (made i think from recorded skateboards) and Thousands Of Dead Gods - recording from a shark cage. I for one couldn't tell the difference. As for understanding the work, here i would disagree. Though "illustration' propaganda, in a sense has understandable messages, as does advertising, some think, (and I do) art is more that that. I cited Tom Wolfe's 'Painted Word' and also Kant's ideas on aesthetics. It's that in the end the work defies understanding that gives it is unique aesthetic. It would follow from an 'understanding' model of art, the production would be fairly simple. To save space here, its not an understanding that makes one think a mountain beautiful. A qualification in geology would be kind of irrelevant.  Or the beauty of a starry night.

Which is maybe what you mean by " we can never understand the piece, but simultaneously cannot fail to understand it"

But "the viewer will contextualize the piece according to their own perception and attached emotions." but artworks can and do change the viewers perceptions.*

*Which in noise is now missing?!

[no_baizuo_allowed]

Anyways, I am tempted to discuss about thing I have discussed privately with many friends: Possibilities of noise in concrete, physical experience, but NOT commercial one. I know, that for my label or distribution to exists, it has to be what it is. But noise band, or artist or release in general. Sometimes it seems as if one could not even imagine anymore other way of existing, than business transaction? There is barely small enough artist or band, that there wouldn't be big cartel. That main reason of existence of release is commodity rather than communication. I fully acknowledge this may be lack of perception. Yet for years I have discovered ways other than what constitutes as "part of music business".  Something I sense, was integral part of older noise & industrial.
Many things flourish from infra of "noise professionals". That is not problem. Problem seems if everything somehow exists in form of "noise professionals" - basically merchants.

A tantalizing point to ponder, and it seems like such a shame that this vital discussion is relegated to a message board, strewn across pages of drama. I almost didn't see this, but when I did it made me start seriously considering my own experience with noise. Are the limitless possibilities of noise in a concrete, physical experience meant in relation to live shows? Or the inherent 'physicality' in handling & playing a release; especially one that you know will be a sought-after classic to come: monolithic, awe-inspiring, underground.
Everyone has their part to play in responding to this dilemma that has been posed - if even just by considering one's own involvement with noise.
Nystrand in his interview for WCN podcast also partially answered our question of what might be missing, & what is sorely needed - more masterpieces. Something to commit to LP rather than another C20.

[theotherjohn]

It's probably more that the end result and product is the primary motive these days, whilst the actual sound recording is secondary. For example, X minutes of noise by Y artist must fit the limitations of Z medium it is pressed/dubbed/mastered onto, and it can only exist as X amount of copies (and be promoted as such), and all copies of the release are mass manufactured to be visually identical/interchangeable with another copy. Whereas in tape trading days or the humble beginnings of a project, an artist might do a custom dub for you of two separate "releases" onto both sides of a C90 cassette, make custom artwork to fit the mood and include a handwritten letter thanking you for your interest. So maybe we do need more cassettes than LPs? Let the listener decide whether something is a masterpiece themselves, not the label trying to shill another product that'll fit neatly into a designated space on your alphabetised or colour coded shelves. It's no wonder why some artist Bandcamps have taken off massively - no format limitations, a pick and mix approach decided by You The Listener, and little to no label involvement. The music is all that matters.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

So maybe we do need more cassettes than LPs?

I think there is vastly more tapes coming out than LP's already? But also tapes have transformed to be more about factory made "professional" items? I do get it, since I am basically burned out for dubbing tapes. Can't say how many thousands of tapes per year I used to dub, but nowadays, I can say it ain't all fun, haha. If item is wanted over X amount of copies, I feel its just fine to have it produced. To become factory yourself, is not necessarily only option and refusing to supply items to those who would like to get it, is also something I personally try to avoid.


When saying: Possibilities of noise in concrete, physical experience, but NOT commercial one. Other ways other than what constitutes as "part of music business".  Something I sense, was integral part of older noise & industrial. makes me think of noise meme recently forwarded to me. It had joke about 80's noise (summed up in eating raw horse head on stage, fucking dead bodies, making flutes of human bones) vs.. contemporary noise.. hehe.. It is kind of related to my feeling of missing element.

It is not mandatory to engage into bizarre socially forbidden acts, but the idea, that THIS could part of noise itself, seems crucial to me. That noise is not merely audio commodity for listening pleasure, but there is more to it. At least in personal level. And it can have this aura that pulls together certain people where some sort of creative interests feed each other, and noise culture itself doesn't come out merely as "music business", but authentic, somewhat alternative way of thinking and acting.

Classic example being like Z'ev stealing scrap metal - where this process is the realization of noise itself. Part of live performance and the recordings (as opposed to just buying latest gadget made by music instrument company). That industrial-noise happens, in action and performance not made first and foremost for audience or documentation, but as personal quest, but nevertheless making its way to the art to be somehow sensed.

[Cranial Blast]

I would tend to agree with the points raised by both of you. Having been away from noise for a long time, the whole field now seems to lack the vitality it had even ten years ago.

JLIAT mentioned an absence of 'novelty', which seems like the best term to use. It can easily seem like everything that can be done, has been done when it comes to noise. The glut of imitators and bandwagon jumpers doesn't help matters, since they only appear interested in trying to replicate the sounds that have gone before.

Personally, I still see noise as being the greatest way of finding novelty in sound.

The question, as far as I see it at the moment, is how can we bring back that freshness, vitality and novelty?

 

I think to keep Noise/PE vital in some ways is to "re-invent the wheel" at times so to speak. I think there are some great artists today who have been influenced by the past and have capitalized on that sound and aesthetics enough so to rekindle that urge or fire of passion. It's kind of like black metal genre, one guy will be bitching about this band is Darkclone and what not, but if the general audience could comprehend that mimicking sounds of the past can sometimes lead to a more fruitful future then I can think hope for the genre to remain can become more stable. Often times you don't get a true "clone" anyways and you get a kind of like this band or artist that splinters off into it's own identity when trying to mimick anyways, especially as time moves forward down the line. I myself for instance came into noise at Scatmother and not at Whitehouse, I like both of them a lot! I had to tread back in time to see the genius of Whitehouse, but also made me think how amazing something like Scatmother is today to take a bit of that influence and bring it with a blend of other great influences and create something all out it's own. It's almost like saying we got Bathory, so why listen to any other black metal that should come out. If you liked what they did, why not check out some other artists who tried to do something similar, especially in the regard that something similar could be eventually lead to new favorite or newly interesting. Also not to say that Scatmother is some Whitehouse copycat artist, but it's clear as day, Whitehouse has definitely had an influence and on many of PE artists today or in the last 10 years, maybe not always in the sound, but clearly in the overall aesthetics and I see nothing wrong with that at all.