WHITE CENTIPEDE NOISE PODCAST

[Strangecross]

Then there is Bolus in new episdoe, explaining that the idea of what constitutes noise has been comepletely changed " you get a boss pedal or whatever and suddenly you are a noise artist?"
NO
This is what we have popping up EVERYWHERE and it is a far cry from say... look back on bands like NURSE WITH WOUND.
Not many people are bringing the artistry into their gear.

[Commander15]

One thing got to add, the talk about "new methods of making noise" is kind of curious. I feel this has been discussed, but like discussions about the need of pushing noise to new direction. Notions of old guys back in the day often being on top of the technological development, as opposed to now methods or gear being.. kind of vintage. Amps,
guitar pedals, synths, etc   Necessity to push noise somewhere else than guys with pedals churning harsh walls on compact cassette...
It feels kind of odd, since I don't think it requires anything else expanding than horizon what one wants to listen to and check out. If not wanting yet another C-30 of pedal noise artists, then one may has to look other direction? As there certainly can't be shortage of computer generated noise, or other new gear.

It could be worth discussion if the obvious development and diversity of noise, methods, gear and ways of releasing or experiencing is merely clouded by outcome of tight curation based on subgenre mentality? Like, wanting something new, but if the new is not the same, it gets rejected? To push something just a notch into another direction keeps it accepted as part of harsh noise, yet then isn't anything dramatically different?

It never ceases to baffle me that this same "new methods required"-angle still pops up in discussions related to noise / experimental, especially when gear is discussed.

To my mind it often contains this maybe unconscious materialistic insinuation that technology is the main driving force behind experimental expression, that persona or the vision behind the sound is secondary. It's not like oil painting technique itself is holding back the artist, it's the lack of skills, imagination and some sort of vision that is the real obstacle. It is possible to create almost infinite amount of sounds, noises and timbres with already existing set of "noise tools" when combined with different spaces, amplification sources, recording methods and post-production tools. It just needs experimenting a lot, listening and some skills and time.

And in this time and age you could definitely find noise artists that do not use contact mic into DOD Death Metal plugged straight into four-trackers input. I understand that people get stuck in their own past preferences, get jaded and cynical about things, that's what life can do to you. But to generalize your own irks and peeves to level of whole artform itself seems a bit stupid to me. It sure is phenomenon in i.e classic rock, only in reactionary form, where people are moaning about the death of rock and electric guitar and the only flagbearer for true rock spirit is either some dipshit Bonamassa or some lukewarm teenage Led Zeppelin jukebox from States.

The context of this conversation was new methods for creating HARSH noise in its precise sense, whatever that may be, not general experimental sound. I can't provide an exact definition of that that is, but as a base definition I might personally say something like it is simply violent, loud, textured sound comprised of pure noise.

I do not believe the existing set of harsh noise tools can create an infinite amount of timbres, noises and sounds. That's just my point, I believe it is finite and quite physically limited, and that the tools predetermine the artistic output in a big way. If we are talking about the existing noise tools, I'd say around 90% of harsh noise artists's work is based around using a fairly narrow range, maybe 10-20, of acoustic or electronic source distorted and filtered through analog circuits, or digital methods that simulate analog circuits. I have to believe there are powerful sounds that satisfy the essence of HARSH noise that are rarely achieved, or possibly have never been achieved, that we might not even be able to imagine, because they don't occur when using the existing set of noise tools.

It is as if a visual artist had a specific INTENT to convey (i.e. harsh noise) but was limiting themselves to use only oil painting to achieve it. At some point they might decide - "for what I want to convey, I could possibly do it better and more effectively with watercolors, or a mixed media collage, or a 3D projection, etc." I'm not arguing that there might not be a seemingly infinite creative variations within the existing framework, but at the end of the day, they will always be defined by its tools and medium, which might not have any inherent defining connection to the intent. If we imagine that harsh noise is a certain type of audio intent beyond the sound of analog distortion, then the current predominant tools might become like a fraction of what could be used to achieve this.

OK here we go. I think the problem here, especially with my original reply, was in semantics and the lack of context. So for the sake of clarifying things i will be using genres / terms NOISE and HARSH NOISE from now on in context of this discussion.

If the amount of noises, sounds and timbres that you pull out from "standard" harsh noise gear isn't infinite, it sure is still plenty. Let's say that you have sheets of metal as an primary sound source. First variables concern the ways of exciting the metal surface: fist, knife, metal chain, concrete etc. Then comes the micing: do you use contact mic or do you use vocal or instrument mics? Every mic has it's own sound and that combined microphones distance from the object is changing the timbre of the recorded sound. And then there is the space where the noise is recorded, that adds huge amount of variables into play. Are you using amplification? Whole new set of variables are introduced into the game and we haven't still touched the topics of effects units, recording gear, mixers, post-production etc. Even if you want to distort and compress the shit out of this set of variables by running the results thru some DOD or Boss distortion pedal, there is still the human factor left in the form of artist or gear operator. For example if you give the same source and gear to, let's say, Treriksröset and Worth, the results would differ greatly.

What comes to the paragraph where you touched the subject of techniques and their limitations, i never wrote that the mixed techniques are out of the question. Hell the mixed techniques are in the very heart of Harsh Noise and Noise itself. Synthesis of techniques are expanding the artistic possibilities and also possible sounds and outcomes even more. But even if we reduce the Harsh Noise into the realm of pure distortion, all these variables and techniques will still affect the choices that the artist make or already made which in turn affects the sound. My main point here is that while the gear matters in this context, in the end of the day it is the human factor that matters the most.

I'll admit that the idea of never achieved essence of HARSH NOISE and the faustian drive towards the final frontiers of HARSHNESS are indeed good things when they are pushing the percieved limits of existing gear and the artform itself. But i have hard time trying to imagine that what the possible "progress" in gear and new methods in HARSH NOISE would ultimately be and would it be fair to call those ways an "progress"? AI assisted noise, where the AI makes the sound synthesis digitally for the operator? Sounds of pure data being crunched?

[FreakAnimalFinland]

Couple things, perhaps there would be good to separate discussion into own topic, if it starts to take too much attention from WCN podcast advertisements? But of course, can keep it on this one too.

One thing, that was mentioned in it, was also the discussion, that when the next wave of noise comes, would it still be about harsh noise tapes? One could say that phenomena of people recording and releasing NOISE on tape has been around since early 80's. 40+ years. Of course before that too in context of experimental music, etc

What was being discussed is, and that kind of overlaps with above mentioned talk about possibilities of noise, is that when this current "wave" of noise starts to go lower as waves then to do, and next time noise starts to gain new momentum and new rise.. will it STILL happen in form of guys putting out 100 copies noise compact cassettes? Like.. lets assume.. 2040?

I think there was expressed that it seems unlikely. And furthermore, that there could (/should) be new ways of experiencing and listening to noise. Like already now, WCN has featured artist who put out release in form of uploaded package with computer script, right? You are not listening tape or CD, but programmed noise generating file from computer?

Of course sound artists has been working with ideas of surround sound, better-than-cd quality digital sound, all sorts of audio-visual combinations. Yet, in the end, if the mass of noise listeners are experiencing the stuff via stereo gear - it will put certain strict parameters on noise. In the end, it will be mono or stereo audio, listened with speakers or headphones. To push noise be more than that, does happen, and can happen in things such as sound installation etc. Suddenly the limitations of stereo playback are not that strict anymore.




Another thing, if noise culture is no longer revolving around artists releasing tapes - I suppose we could simply acknowledge this already happened. I feel pretty confident to think the NOISE what we see on SI forum or S&W forum, plus on the labels who advertise physical releases there, has vastly bigger noise phenomena of noise makers. Like you could think of modular synth culture. You may ask someone how they feel about this and that label, this and that artists, this and that album, yet they might be thinking what the hell you are talking about, I'm not listening so shitty 70's kraut albums, I'm here to make synth experiments and watch gear advice videos!  Nothing revolves around releasing tape or LP.

One can go to youtube, type (as example) harsh noise contact mic. You will get instantly bunch of videos like Making Harsh Noise With Contact Mic, Mixer and Pedals (6K views), Crank Sturgeon Contact Mic Tutorial (27K views), Harsh Noise Gear Walkthrough // Pedals, Contact Mics, Tape Loops, & More! (27K views), Little John Noise Box (52K views) and so on and on. While noise artists interviews do appear to be popular in contrast of how noise sells (artists making tapes of edition of 20-100, attracts 1000 podcast listeners), both these things seem to be small minority phenomena as opposed to some sort of interest to be noise makers.

I would assume this could be related to that a bit?

Then there is Bolus in new episdoe, explaining that the idea of what constitutes noise has been comepletely changed " you get a boss pedal or whatever and suddenly you are a noise artist?"
NO
This is what we have popping up EVERYWHERE and it is a far cry from say... look back on bands like NURSE WITH WOUND.
Not many people are bringing the artistry into their gear.

If harsh noise becomes stripped down into merely being "about distortion" and all its cultural qualities apart from technology is fading away plus notion of "noise artist" (as opposed to "noise makers") is no longer there... There is huge change. Despite they can and do cross-over, there is quite a difference in "workshop hobby noise", and "harsh noise" as art form, that doesn't even really demand that artists themselves consider themselves doing art.

[Yankee]

One thing, that was mentioned in it, was also the discussion, that when the next wave of noise comes, would it still be about harsh noise tapes? One could say that phenomena of people recording and releasing NOISE on tape has been around since early 80's. 40+ years. Of course before that too in context of experimental music, etc

What was being discussed is, and that kind of overlaps with above mentioned talk about possibilities of noise, is that when this current "wave" of noise starts to go lower as waves then to do, and next time noise starts to gain new momentum and new rise.. will it STILL happen in form of guys putting out 100 copies noise compact cassettes? Like.. lets assume.. 2040?

I think there was expressed that it seems unlikely. And furthermore, that there could (/should) be new ways of experiencing and listening to noise.

Without having gone back and listened to our actual conversation, I would say this is the essence of what we were discussing. It's a fascinating idea.

Noise does not need to be any more than it already is. It doesn't need to "progress", but it will surely evolve in its delivery methods.

[WCN]

Unrelated to the discussion above, which I hope to add more to, but:

I've now made the interview with Love Rosenström of OCHU available to the public, previously only available through Patreon https://youtu.be/3yLyQmvDkSo

My next podcast guest on Monday is Steve Underwood of Harbinger Sound.

If you appreciate WCN Podcast and want to be sure it carries on, support it! https://www.patreon.com/whitecentipedenoise

[Commander15]

Unrelated to the discussion above, which I hope to add more to, but:

I've now made the interview with Love Rosenström of OCHU available to the public, previously only available through Patreon https://youtu.be/3yLyQmvDkSo

My next podcast guest on Monday is Steve Underwood of Harbinger Sound.

If you appreciate WCN Podcast and want to be sure it carries on, support it! https://www.patreon.com/whitecentipedenoise

Nice, yesterday i was just thinking about how nice it would be to see that OCHU interview!

[Fistfuck Masonanie]

Unrelated to the discussion above, which I hope to add more to, but:

I've now made the interview with Love Rosenström of OCHU available to the public, previously only available through Patreon https://youtu.be/3yLyQmvDkSo

My next podcast guest on Monday is Steve Underwood of Harbinger Sound.

If you appreciate WCN Podcast and want to be sure it carries on, support it! https://www.patreon.com/whitecentipedenoise

Nice, yesterday i was just thinking about how nice it would be to see that OCHU interview!

Recently picked up a few OCHU LPs and was curious to learn more about the man behind the project. This was one of the higher-tier interviews that had me the most curious. Very much excited you released it to the public, thanks Oskar.

Already a supporter but may have to bump up to maniac level. A bit backlogged, but looking forward to the T.E.F. episode as well.

[RURAL RESISTANCE]

The Ochu interview was a real treat! I'm a fan of his work and it was really interesting to hear about the thoughts behind the project. Also nice to watch this kind of quality for a change compared to the webcam material.

[Fistfuck Masonanie]

In the Love interview, one thing that really resonated with me and I think about often, is going back and spending more time with older releases. Love says, "We all could reverse a bit, we should talk about stuff that's a few years old too. It's an artifact that you can use and listen to for quite some time."

I've been more consciously trying to listen to all new releases at least a few times before it goes on the shelf and spend time revisiting releases from even the year prior. The flow of new material is just so overwhelming, it feels like new releases are so quickly pushed to the wayside and never discussed again, even just a couple of months after release. One of the negatives of this currently flourishing productivity of the last few years. There is so much material, a lot of quality material, and it's extremely difficult to keep up with it all, actually spend time and absorb the material, and enjoy it over a length of time.

I think recently in the reviews thread, there have been quite a few posts about older releases which is refreshing. Would love to see more of this! What have we all put back on the shelf from the last few years too quickly and without discussing or spending enough time with?

[Theodore]

One thing, that was mentioned in it, was also the discussion, that when the next wave of noise comes, would it still be about harsh noise tapes? One could say that phenomena of people recording and releasing NOISE on tape has been around since early 80's. 40+ years. Of course before that too in context of experimental music, etc

What was being discussed is, and that kind of overlaps with above mentioned talk about possibilities of noise, is that when this current "wave" of noise starts to go lower as waves then to do, and next time noise starts to gain new momentum and new rise.. will it STILL happen in form of guys putting out 100 copies noise compact cassettes? Like.. lets assume.. 2040?

I think there was expressed that it seems unlikely. And furthermore, that there could (/should) be new ways of experiencing and listening to noise.

40 years, i wasnt there but seems to me that not much changed, except the computers / internet [see: communication, 'marketing' , editing, digital files] , and that already many years ago . An old wolf doesnt change his mind. You cant teach an old dog new tricks ... New dogs follow their parents' / pack example too. Minor changes may happen.

2040 ? As long there are tapes and decks it will still be 'limited to 100 cassettes' + CD + hm, i am not sure about vinyl. 17 years from now. It's not that far away, and i dont think any big new thing like PC / internet will happen. Though at some point i think we ll need a 'romantic' millionaire / company to invest [well, to decide to loose money in order to revive a forgotten technology, that was abandoned suddenly, and its secrets were discarded. If i remember well i had even read that the formula known brands had for making good tapes, this got lost too] in making a deck like the good ones from late 80s - early 90s. These machines will be 50 years old by then. Probably beyond refurbishment [?] or replaced with lesser quality materials degrading the performance.

[theotherjohn]

I'm sure that in 2040 people will be nostalgic about what happened 20-25 years ago... pandemic noise will be celebrated and written about in the same way that we write about 1980s industrial or 1990s noise; obscure Soundcloud or Bandcamp releases will be given our current day equivalent of the Super Deluxe Edition treatment; books and PhD dissertations will be written about Discord groups, noise forums and social media; the more outrageous aesthetics of the alt-right and ctrl-left cultures will be sold to Generation C; the USB drive will be the new cassette and Sneakernet noise will get an ironic revival as what notions of privacy we still have increasingly disappears.

As for the "new" things: kids will be 3D printing ironic takes on retro 'Record Store Day' vinyl releases for a laugh; VR arena sets will be the norm as we sit in our pods, and what "real-life" concerts we still attend will often feature hologram projections of either real or computer generated performers on the same bill; insect-sized drones will replace smart phones as the current annoyance of day-to-day life; said drones will capture multi-sensory room scans that will be pirated and disseminated widely to the chagrin of what entertainment industries still remain; also, expect AI-generated "multiverse" discographies of artists past and present, and revolts against/celebrations for it in equal measure...

If you think that's bad, just think about what Generation E will have to suffer in 2060!

[Andrew McIntosh]

books and PhD dissertations will be written about Discord groups, noise forums and social media;

They already are, aren't they?

[RURAL RESISTANCE]

In the Love interview, one thing that really resonated with me and I think about often, is going back and spending more time with older releases. Love says, "We all could reverse a bit, we should talk about stuff that's a few years old too. It's an artifact that you can use and listen to for quite some time."

This resonated with me as well. I've been trying to follow a "buy less, listen more" ideology for several years now, also consciously slowing down my own pace of releasing stuff. We're in this thing for life so there is no hurry really. And the releases shouldn't be disposable, the best records reveal new things about them still after several spins.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

One thing, that was mentioned in it, was also the discussion, that when the next wave of noise comes, would it still be about harsh noise tapes? One could say that phenomena of people recording and releasing NOISE on tape has been around since early 80's. 40+ years. Of course before that too in context of experimental music, etc

What was being discussed is, and that kind of overlaps with above mentioned talk about possibilities of noise, is that when this current "wave" of noise starts to go lower as waves then to do, and next time noise starts to gain new momentum and new rise.. will it STILL happen in form of guys putting out 100 copies noise compact cassettes? Like.. lets assume.. 2040?

I think there was expressed that it seems unlikely. And furthermore, that there could (/should) be new ways of experiencing and listening to noise.

40 years, i wasnt there but seems to me that not much changed, except the computers / internet [see: communication, 'marketing' , editing, digital files] , and that already many years ago . An old wolf doesnt change his mind. You cant teach an old dog new tricks ... New dogs follow their parents' / pack example too. Minor changes may happen.

I would say that tons of things have changed in 40 years. How noise is made, why noise is made, how noise is manufactured, distributed, packaged. Different variations of (even harsh) noise have gradually increased. In live noise activity, there is huge changes pretty much everywhere. All these things created vast changes into all levels of how "noise happens", even pre-internet. I would assume that idea of teenage years noise experiments being published as digipak CD's and multi-LP box-sets would have appeared almost unbelievable thing even merely couple decades ago. Of course, like I mentioned, if we consider experiencing and listening noise is only observed on level that you got stereo audio signal coming from headphones or speakers ... sure, reducing scope so tightly, surely noise is experienced and listened most often like that. As soon as you expand way of looking it, I think the huge constantly ongoing changes in ways noise comes very clear.

Perhaps also possibility of topic of its own, as it doesn't really relate to podcast... but just some thought:
I would also like to throw bold hypothesis about possibility that this many years of gaming culture, may have effected noise too? I mean with that, that I have sometimes feeling as if technically oriented sound crafting or things like toying around with digital modular systems etc has more in common with computer games than "art"? Sound crafting may be just fun exploration of what can be done with things you bought from particular company who manufactures these tools made for... some sort of gaming? Even the gamers might be loading the documentation of what they have been doing online, and people even watch them. How would it differ from stuff done by noise artists? I guess sometimes blurred line. It seems very common with modular scene, when sound making appears to be so fun, and so much of things to try and experiment, that several guys I have talked to have said they usually just play for fun. Not really record. No intent to make great album, but the fun of playing. Of course people do that with other instruments, but it feels there is the gaming quality in some of noise?

[Theodore]

40 years, i wasnt there but seems to me that not much changed, except the computers / internet [see: communication, 'marketing' , editing, digital files] , and that already many years ago . An old wolf doesnt change his mind. You cant teach an old dog new tricks ... New dogs follow their parents' / pack example too. Minor changes may happen.

I would say that tons of things have changed in 40 years. How noise is made, why noise is made, how noise is manufactured, distributed, packaged. Different variations of (even harsh) noise have gradually increased. In live noise activity, there is huge changes pretty much everywhere. All these things created vast changes into all levels of how "noise happens", even pre-internet. I would assume that idea of teenage years noise experiments being published as digipak CD's and multi-LP box-sets would have appeared almost unbelievable thing even merely couple decades ago. ...

Dont know Mikko. I get your points and even if i didnt i wouldnt argue strongly against them since i wasnt there, neither i create. But, i have some thoughts. Maybe i play with the words here but i see these changes as a natural 'growth' / evolution of something that it was new and 'unshaped' , and minor [why noise is made, that would be a major, but i disagree that the whys have changed] . Using tracks in a DAW instead of 4-tracker, quicker communication / purchases, cheaper production prices for CD, etc. these are practicalities. These ofcource can / will change as long there is the wish and the circumstances allow it. I believe noise has reached maturity, it is not in a shaping process anymore. Has adopted what it wanted to adopt from PC / internet / technological boom. A question to help us predict the future would be : What we want to change in noise ? Do we see any relative discoveries possible ?

Why, who, how, one listens / makes noise are the core of the matter.

Why : I guess everyone has a different answer, if he has an answer at all. And it is like that from the beginning. Noise is untouched by markets, money, fame, lifestyle, our surroundings, 'coolness' . I like to think it as the last frontier of the sound explorer, the Valhalla dead warriors fallen in the battle against music go, the guerilla camp in the jungle for the unsatisfied, our sanity pill, the dictatorship sound totalitarians find shelter. You name it. All the whys are untouched. Our inner urge. Only. Whoever doesnt feel it anymore, leaves, cause there is nothing more for him here to make him having second thoughts.

Who : [Numbers just for the sake of talk] : 1/1000 that will listen to noise will like it or find it interesting. 1/100 of those who like it will follow it actively as fan or maker. - I bet percentage hasnt changed since the past. Just now with internet info is around, anything can be reached, even by pure luck, noise too, so fans are more than in the past, in more countries, more artists, more shows etc.

How : Ofcource guys doing this for decades have came to master their craft. New guys have potential to became better faster than the old guard did. But the core elements / instruments are the same. Mastering the technique, new technology, new experimentations led to different variations indeed, though i wouldnt be surprised if for every new variation there is a track in an old forgotten tape comp trying something similar. So it's useful here to ask : What technology, instruments, sound sources we need more ? Do we ? Change / innovation / discovery rarely comes when there isnt a need for it.
As for listening : still cassettes, CDs, vinyls. And digital. Still pretty much same sales [?] in analogy with the fan audience. Digital killed physical releases at many other genres. Not in noise.

Speaking of change is funny to see other genres' status. Rock, punk, hip-hop, heavy metal, techno. Started as underground, 'revolutionary' , 'alternative' , finally dead or mainstream or 'complicated' . Cause there were changes at their core, one way or another. - I often hear say that stagnation is death. Maybe. Also they call the constant change evolution. Yes. Pause two distant frames in the evolution stage. Fuck, that looks like mutation ! I choose stagnation in maturity. Noise is perfect as it is !

Dont take me too seriously, haha.